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steve_wright

do i need a harness?
« on: April 20, 2004, 09:56:45 pm »
Can you help?

Looked a a job today, first floor office about 12 windows of which half over look a busy street. I thought no probs there is a flat roof to stand on about 2feet wide, but then the manager says the previous WC stopped cleaning because he had to have a harness in case he fell off and hurt somebody.

But if your up a ladder you can still fall off?

I know the easy answer is to get a pole system but until i get established i don't want to shell out just yet.

Is public liability not enough to have working in a public place?

Hope this makes sense!

Sorry to be a pain hope you can help?

Steve Wright

Jake

  • Posts: 348
Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2004, 10:18:59 pm »
Steve

Do it early on a Sunday!!!!

                                  Jake
Exeter, Devon

steve_wright

Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2004, 01:23:09 am »
Thanks Jake!  ;)

I may well do that.

I have been trying to find out on Helth&Safety sites what the real solution is,but drew a blank?

I kind of get the impression the other WC got frightened off the job.So what i would like to do is go back with a profesional sounding solution even if i do clean them when no body is about.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2004, 07:08:44 pm »
As it is only first floor you are not very high up anyway, I wouldn't worry about safety harnesses All of my work is in the high street, if I am concerned about people being underneath I just make sure I am there early in the morning before people are up and about.
A couple of days a week my start time is 6am, perfect! streets are dead quiet and I can crack on at a fair old lick.
And you can always put out some warning signs to ensure that the public will be aware that you are working above them.

I have heard it said that some insurance companies won't pay out, claiming your cover is invalid if you have done something you shouldn't have done.
Where insurance is concerned it could be argued that if we all followed safe procedure there would be no accidents. Therefore they would never pay out (or rarely) as almost all accidents are down to human error.

In 20 years the only claim I had was when the ladder was blown onto a customers car.
It could have been said that I should not have left my ladder unnatended on a windy day, or that it should have been laid flat on the ground.
Perhaps the insurance company could have said they would not cover my negligence, they did of course, after all that is what you have your insurance for.

It sounds to me as if the previous cleaner was just making excuses not to do the job, maybe he underpriced it and didn't feel he could put it up enough and not look a total muppett!
Or maybe he didn't like the job.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

steve_wright

Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2004, 08:27:34 pm »
Thanks for the advice Ian i will certainly take it on board.

I shall call back at the office and tell them a harness(not strickly true) has been ordered and in the mean time i shall do them early morning.

Thanks again guys!

Steve  ;)

tom_currie

  • Posts: 98
Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2004, 11:48:13 pm »
the job should have  risk assessment and method statement done on your part.you should also ask for the companys health & safety for contractors working on site.you will then know what you can and cant do.doing a job when no ones looking wont stop a fall.you are then able to charge the right price for the job.back door window cleaning only benifits the customer usually on price

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2004, 12:30:37 am »
harness are cheap anyway just paid 35 pounds for one from a local company


andy

dorset

fed member

tom_currie

  • Posts: 98
Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2004, 12:56:01 am »
harness no use unless you have eyebolt to hook on to.
as u said they are cheap.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2004, 09:19:16 am »
Tom,
Why on earth go to the bother of risk assesment and method statement on something so simple and straight forward as a first floor office?
This is a description of a large percentage of the work I do.
It is a high street clean.
I do understand that we are being asked for these things more often now, but the progression is that we should follow this procedure for all work.

As for risk (slightly off centre) did you know that in all ladder falls, 10% of them happen on the final step whilst descending the ladder? and often result in serious injury? (official government figures).

Steve,
JUst wondering, but is the only way you can get at these windows by making your way along the 2 foot ledge? Or would you be able to do the individual windows off the ladder?

Tom,
I do agree about the harnesses though, without eye bolts to attach them to they don't really serve much of a function, and in twenty years I haven't come accross much in the way of eye bolts that you could use for this.
Actually you can make that 32 years, for twelve years prior to becoming a window cleaner I was a decorator, was apprenticed on my fathers building company on leaving school.

I have done local authority work on local authority buildings, you would have thought that these at least would have provision of eyebolts for harness and to tie off ladders for maintainance work wouldn't you.
But they rarely do.
You would also have assumed that these details would be automatically seen to on new buildings, and not just offices but houses too, but they aren't are they.

It would seem that such safety measures will need to be retro-fitted.
Wouldn't it make so much more sense if these things were done on construction, also much easier then for health and safety officers to prosecute (or persecute) tradesmen who then do not make use of them.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Craig_Mawlam

Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2004, 12:44:55 pm »
Health & Safety regulations state that fall arrest equipment (harnesses etc) most be used when working within 2mtrs of an unprotected roof edge and or where a fall of over 2 mtrs could occur.

There is a dilemma when you, the contractor is supposed to observe these rules yet no anchor points for ladders or harnesses exist. Do you want the work? and do you want to comply with legislation? In both cases the answer must be yes!

The solution is to use an obvious alternative in order to satisfy both aims.

best regards
Craig Mawlam

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2004, 04:03:46 pm »
With you on that one Craig, as I intend to be a member of the WFP brigade as of this weekend (hopefully) and it will be a big relief not to have to climb ladders-well, not often I hope-again.
But as on just about every house, the upstairs is over 2 metres its rather a good job the health and saftety taliban don't police the regs too strictly isn't it?

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Craig_Mawlam

Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2004, 04:39:18 pm »
Ian,

In this country it seems to be the case that you can do almost anything you like so long as;

1) No one stops you
2) You're happy to do it

And this is fine until something goes wrong and then all hell lets loose, the laws of the land will come down on you, and your insurers will run a mile.

Essentially there are not enough H&S inspectors to cover the country therefore they spend most of their time being reactive rather than being proactive as they are in countries such as the USA. There businesses receive a visit from OHSA once a year, and action will be taken on the spot if your procedures are found to be lacking.

Learn more about Health & Safety and the issues that affect window cleaners by enrolling in a BWCA Health & Safety Course.

Best regards

Craig Mawlam
Internal Verifier
BWCA C&G NVQ Centre
0800 146133

steve_wright

Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2004, 12:25:18 am »
Quote
JUst wondering, but is the only way you can get at these windows by making your way along the 2 foot ledge? Or would you be able to do the individual windows off the ladder?




Not very easy off ladder would be at a bit tricky but not impossible.

The manager has got back to me with the paper work from the H&S people who were horrified that previous WC was cleaning from that flat roof.

They recomended eye bolts be fitted so a harness could be attached,but the work was never done.

I have suggested i clean them from the inside to keep contract until we reach a solution(or i buy WFP) .

Steve  ;)

tom_currie

  • Posts: 98
Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2004, 01:45:01 am »
cleaning from inside still requires eyebolts you must harness even when cleaning from inside. you can fall out as well.
as i said before risk assess & method statement surely it must be obvious now why i said it
as now you not looking to cleaver on the job
what insureance does a contractor need to work on their premisis and what do they want on h&s. the company will have an H & S procededure for contractors

tom_currie

  • Posts: 98
Re: do i need a harness?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2004, 01:59:41 am »
sorry for spelling mistakes in last post.
i am in the process of getting that information from my customers
the first couple of replies have come in stateing
5 million public & 10 million employers mandadory for contractors also risk assess & method the documents are 8 pages of H & S procedures this is the high street
i have no problem as i allready do comply with there spec . now also going to find out about places i dont clean they will probably be the same as above so the one man show will have a problem am not getting at one man bands shops etc are the ones who are wrong because they are the only ones to benifit by frocing down the prices. if frocing them to comply with their own H & S is the way then they will have to pay the proper rate for work