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CleanClear

  • Posts: 14695
Bio Film Removal (RO)
« on: July 09, 2021, 04:07:55 pm »
Has any one had any success with bio film removal in their RO system, NOT using Hypo (Sodium Hypochlorite) ?
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CleanClear

  • Posts: 14695
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2021, 12:14:24 pm »
Ok, had a crack at this myself. Bio Film symptoms i had was pre filters where almost brown on being changed, even after a fortnight. Slight slimy feeling in insides of pre filter housings. RO membrane only lasting 10/11 months and again, slightly slimy feeling inside the housing. Previously when changing any of them i'd give them housings a long soak in hypo. Turns out its no good, might as well as soaked them in lemonade. Unbelivably hypo does not and cannot kill and/or remove bio film. I've seen it remove green gunk from walls and floors etc... but in a water system all its presence does is prevent bio film occuring and you can't run your system with hypo in it.

Lots of products available to remove bio film available from Spa dealers and they're expensive. Anyway what i done was empty out the IBC and just left enough water in, just above the tap at the bottom so i could pop a hozelock on and direct the water back through the system again via the pump. Popped the waste pipe into the top of the tank so i could recirculate it and i dissolved a few mug fulls of bio washing powder in a bucket of warm water and tipped it into the IBC. Ran the pump until the slightly cloudy bio was coming out the waste pipe and i assesed the filters and membrane where full of the liquid, then switch the pump off and let it sit for about five minutes. When switching the pump on again to recirculate the liquid the dark gunk liquid (bio film) that comes out is unreal. Repeated this a couple of times and i was happy that it had worked in removing bio film as i could see it all come out what i wanted to know next was if the RO membrane was going to be ok. Hooked the pump back up to usual water supply and ran it all on flush for about 10 mins to clear all the gunk out, tipped the contents of the IBC. Bit of a pain swilling and the foamy bubbles out the IBC, then replaced the two pre filters. TDS is now improved. Its a succes as far as i'm concerned. Going to do it again in a months time as the system was really full of it and i'll do things a bit different next time. Going to use the Bio Liquid instead of powder and i'd leave the stuff sitting for about an hour as i was in a bit of a rush with it just to see if it had affected the RO membrane in any way.

I'll update when i do the next clean on it, in the meantime the new membrane i'd bought to go in can sit on the shelf a bit longer, hopefully a lot longer  ;D
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Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2021, 04:34:40 pm »
Ok, had a crack at this myself. Bio Film symptoms i had was pre filters where almost brown on being changed, even after a fortnight. Slight slimy feeling in insides of pre filter housings. RO membrane only lasting 10/11 months and again, slightly slimy feeling inside the housing. Previously when changing any of them i'd give them housings a long soak in hypo. Turns out its no good, might as well as soaked them in lemonade. Unbelivably hypo does not and cannot kill and/or remove bio film. I've seen it remove green gunk from walls and floors etc... but in a water system all its presence does is prevent bio film occuring and you can't run your system with hypo in it.

Lots of products available to remove bio film available from Spa dealers and they're expensive. Anyway what i done was empty out the IBC and just left enough water in, just above the tap at the bottom so i could pop a hozelock on and direct the water back through the system again via the pump. Popped the waste pipe into the top of the tank so i could recirculate it and i dissolved a few mug fulls of bio washing powder in a bucket of warm water and tipped it into the IBC. Ran the pump until the slightly cloudy bio was coming out the waste pipe and i assesed the filters and membrane where full of the liquid, then switch the pump off and let it sit for about five minutes. When switching the pump on again to recirculate the liquid the dark gunk liquid (bio film) that comes out is unreal. Repeated this a couple of times and i was happy that it had worked in removing bio film as i could see it all come out what i wanted to know next was if the RO membrane was going to be ok. Hooked the pump back up to usual water supply and ran it all on flush for about 10 mins to clear all the gunk out, tipped the contents of the IBC. Bit of a pain swilling and the foamy bubbles out the IBC, then replaced the two pre filters. TDS is now improved. Its a succes as far as i'm concerned. Going to do it again in a months time as the system was really full of it and i'll do things a bit different next time. Going to use the Bio Liquid instead of powder and i'd leave the stuff sitting for about an hour as i was in a bit of a rush with it just to see if it had affected the RO membrane in any way.

I'll update when i do the next clean on it, in the meantime the new membrane i'd bought to go in can sit on the shelf a bit longer, hopefully a lot longer  ;D




Hypo does kill and remove bio film what do you think is used to sterilise your tap water that you drink ? What’s put in swimming pools ? To prevent the water going green ?? What do supermarket s wash all there pre packed salad in ???

CleanClear

  • Posts: 14695
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2021, 04:54:24 pm »
Ok, had a crack at this myself. Bio Film symptoms i had was pre filters where almost brown on being changed, even after a fortnight. Slight slimy feeling in insides of pre filter housings. RO membrane only lasting 10/11 months and again, slightly slimy feeling inside the housing. Previously when changing any of them i'd give them housings a long soak in hypo. Turns out its no good, might as well as soaked them in lemonade. Unbelivably hypo does not and cannot kill and/or remove bio film. I've seen it remove green gunk from walls and floors etc... but in a water system all its presence does is prevent bio film occuring and you can't run your system with hypo in it.

Lots of products available to remove bio film available from Spa dealers and they're expensive. Anyway what i done was empty out the IBC and just left enough water in, just above the tap at the bottom so i could pop a hozelock on and direct the water back through the system again via the pump. Popped the waste pipe into the top of the tank so i could recirculate it and i dissolved a few mug fulls of bio washing powder in a bucket of warm water and tipped it into the IBC. Ran the pump until the slightly cloudy bio was coming out the waste pipe and i assesed the filters and membrane where full of the liquid, then switch the pump off and let it sit for about five minutes. When switching the pump on again to recirculate the liquid the dark gunk liquid (bio film) that comes out is unreal. Repeated this a couple of times and i was happy that it had worked in removing bio film as i could see it all come out what i wanted to know next was if the RO membrane was going to be ok. Hooked the pump back up to usual water supply and ran it all on flush for about 10 mins to clear all the gunk out, tipped the contents of the IBC. Bit of a pain swilling and the foamy bubbles out the IBC, then replaced the two pre filters. TDS is now improved. Its a succes as far as i'm concerned. Going to do it again in a months time as the system was really full of it and i'll do things a bit different next time. Going to use the Bio Liquid instead of powder and i'd leave the stuff sitting for about an hour as i was in a bit of a rush with it just to see if it had affected the RO membrane in any way.

I'll update when i do the next clean on it, in the meantime the new membrane i'd bought to go in can sit on the shelf a bit longer, hopefully a lot longer  ;D




Hypo does kill and remove bio film what do you think is used to sterilise your tap water that you drink ? What’s put in swimming pools ? To prevent the water going green ?? What do supermarket s wash all there pre packed salad in ???

Yes you have gave me excellent examples of where hypo (chlorine bleach) prevents bio film like i said it does. No examples of it removing bio film though, although you seem so certain its able to?
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Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2021, 06:27:40 pm »
Ok, had a crack at this myself. Bio Film symptoms i had was pre filters where almost brown on being changed, even after a fortnight. Slight slimy feeling in insides of pre filter housings. RO membrane only lasting 10/11 months and again, slightly slimy feeling inside the housing. Previously when changing any of them i'd give them housings a long soak in hypo. Turns out its no good, might as well as soaked them in lemonade. Unbelivably hypo does not and cannot kill and/or remove bio film. I've seen it remove green gunk from walls and floors etc... but in a water system all its presence does is prevent bio film occuring and you can't run your system with hypo in it.

Lots of products available to remove bio film available from Spa dealers and they're expensive. Anyway what i done was empty out the IBC and just left enough water in, just above the tap at the bottom so i could pop a hozelock on and direct the water back through the system again via the pump. Popped the waste pipe into the top of the tank so i could recirculate it and i dissolved a few mug fulls of bio washing powder in a bucket of warm water and tipped it into the IBC. Ran the pump until the slightly cloudy bio was coming out the waste pipe and i assesed the filters and membrane where full of the liquid, then switch the pump off and let it sit for about five minutes. When switching the pump on again to recirculate the liquid the dark gunk liquid (bio film) that comes out is unreal. Repeated this a couple of times and i was happy that it had worked in removing bio film as i could see it all come out what i wanted to know next was if the RO membrane was going to be ok. Hooked the pump back up to usual water supply and ran it all on flush for about 10 mins to clear all the gunk out, tipped the contents of the IBC. Bit of a pain swilling and the foamy bubbles out the IBC, then replaced the two pre filters. TDS is now improved. Its a succes as far as i'm concerned. Going to do it again in a months time as the system was really full of it and i'll do things a bit different next time. Going to use the Bio Liquid instead of powder and i'd leave the stuff sitting for about an hour as i was in a bit of a rush with it just to see if it had affected the RO membrane in any way.

I'll update when i do the next clean on it, in the meantime the new membrane i'd bought to go in can sit on the shelf a bit longer, hopefully a lot longer  ;D




Hypo does kill and remove bio film what do you think is used to sterilise your tap water that you drink ? What’s put in swimming pools ? To prevent the water going green ?? What do supermarket s wash all there pre packed salad in ???

Yes you have gave me excellent examples of where hypo (chlorine bleach) prevents bio film like i said it does. No examples of it removing bio film though, although you seem so certain its able to?



Softwashing anything is a good example of killing bio films on walls paths etc but that is far greater build up than you will get in an ro system , however once a membrane is clogged up it will need replacing as it’s like a fine gauge sheet tightly rapped up  . But hypo will 100% kill anything like that . All water authority’s use hypo to sterilise there filtration plants and kill off bacterial growth , Ime not sure on the frequency of application but they do it on a regular basis . As a side point I flush all our vans tanks with a hypo mix every 12-18 months this kills the slimy feeling on the sides of the tanks that build up over time , especially if you use hot water as this encourages the growth and it multiplies much faster . After flushing the tanks the sides are no longer slippery your hand stickers to the inside of the tank rather than sliding around on it if that makes sense

CleanClear

  • Posts: 14695
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2021, 08:07:11 pm »

Softwashing anything is a good example of killing bio films on walls paths etc but that is far greater build up than you will get in an ro system , however once a membrane is clogged up it will need replacing as it’s like a fine gauge sheet tightly rapped up  . But hypo will 100% kill anything like that . All water authority’s use hypo to sterilise there filtration plants and kill off bacterial growth , Ime not sure on the frequency of application but they do it on a regular basis . As a side point I flush all our vans tanks with a hypo mix every 12-18 months this kills the slimy feeling on the sides of the tanks that build up over time , especially if you use hot water as this encourages the growth and it multiplies much faster . After flushing the tanks the sides are no longer slippery your hand stickers to the inside of the tank rather than sliding around on it if that makes sense

I've never had to do a van tank, i havn't come across a problem with any growth in a van tank so i can't comment on that. I use Hypo like you and i fully know how good it is at what it does. Like you i assumed it would kill anything like that, but it doesn't.

Here's my experience with filter housings and hypo. The filter housings get a thin film of very light brown slime. I used to just call it gunk, it took me a while to understand it was actually bio film. I can drop the housings in hypo solution ( i did regularly) and it did not remove the slime at all. I had to wash them out with some soapy water and a micro fibre. So in my own experience the hypo did not remove it nor prevent it from coming back. Of course it was only removed from where i could touch and scrub, so it was still there waiting to continue to grow again.

I'll try be brief here as i've a tendency to waffle on  ;D  What led me to try this was a friend had a hot tub problem and he asked me for help as he knew i filtered water and may know some stuff. He was getting hot tub rash, had his water tested and had an engineer out to check the system. He was told to chop his hot tub up and skip it as it had a bio film infection in it and you can't remove it. Of course i didn't really know some stuff, i thought i did !! I told him to pop a 25 litre tub of hypo in there and it will kill anything. He'd already done it, and it didn't. His bio film had gone from the smooth surfaces of the hot tub where he could scrub with a cloth, but not gone from the places he could not reach, the hypo did not touch it. Sure enough i done some research and you will find its accepted and stated that Sodium Hypochlorite does not infact remove bio film. I can agree with these findings, as it never removed it from my filter housings either.

A brief google of some of the ingredients of bio film removers will lead you to the same ingredients as bio washing powder. They're designed to remove oil, grease, fats etc... from delicate fabrics at low temperatures. I've tried it and its worked. I'd already bought a replacement membrane so my intention was to replace it but try and cleanse the system out thoroughly before replacing it. If the bio removed crud from the membrane then that was a bonus. It looks right now like its worked. I take your point about a membrane being a fine sheet of stuff and fully understand that. Next clean i'll do a small vid to show, you'd have to see it with your own eyes. But in anycase i can't argue with the results, i seen the dirt come out, i seen the TDS come down and the new membrane is still sat there on the shelf.
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CleanClear

  • Posts: 14695
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2021, 08:23:07 pm »
All water authority’s use hypo to sterilise there filtration plants and kill off bacterial growth , Ime not sure on the frequency of application but they do it on a regular basis .

Just as a side note regarding this, i'm not trying to be smart just pointing it out so we are both understanding the use of sodium hypochlorite in water purification. There is no frequency of application, its permanently in there. i.e they don't just dose now and again. Its permanently dosed , thats why we use carbon block filters to remove it from our systems.
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Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2021, 08:33:50 pm »
All water authority’s use hypo to sterilise there filtration plants and kill off bacterial growth , Ime not sure on the frequency of application but they do it on a regular basis .

Just as a side note regarding this, i'm not trying to be smart just pointing it out so we are both understanding the use of sodium hypochlorite in water purification. There is no frequency of application, its permanently in there. i.e they don't just dose now and again. Its permanently dosed , thats why we use carbon block filters to remove it from our systems.


I know it’s permanent added to the water but they have a service program ware they flush all the pipe work through including the filtration plant every so many months with a hypo solution as I have been there when it’s been done there is a water treatment p,Ant just up the road from ware I live Ime also in the fire service and we were doing a site visit when they were flushing it , the guys said that it kills all bacteria and bio films .

Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2021, 08:41:45 pm »

Softwashing anything is a good example of killing bio films on walls paths etc but that is far greater build up than you will get in an ro system , however once a membrane is clogged up it will need replacing as it’s like a fine gauge sheet tightly rapped up  . But hypo will 100% kill anything like that . All water authority’s use hypo to sterilise there filtration plants and kill off bacterial growth , Ime not sure on the frequency of application but they do it on a regular basis . As a side point I flush all our vans tanks with a hypo mix every 12-18 months this kills the slimy feeling on the sides of the tanks that build up over time , especially if you use hot water as this encourages the growth and it multiplies much faster . After flushing the tanks the sides are no longer slippery your hand stickers to the inside of the tank rather than sliding around on it if that makes sense

I've never had to do a van tank, i havn't come across a problem with any growth in a van tank so i can't comment on that. I use Hypo like you and i fully know how good it is at what it does. Like you i assumed it would kill anything like that, but it doesn't.

Here's my experience with filter housings and hypo. The filter housings get a thin film of very light brown slime. I used to just call it gunk, it took me a while to understand it was actually bio film. I can drop the housings in hypo solution ( i did regularly) and it did not remove the slime at all. I had to wash them out with some soapy water and a micro fibre. So in my own experience the hypo did not remove it nor prevent it from coming back. Of course it was only removed from where i could touch and scrub, so it was still there waiting to continue to grow again.

I'll try be brief here as i've a tendency to waffle on  ;D  What led me to try this was a friend had a hot tub problem and he asked me for help as he knew i filtered water and may know some stuff. He was getting hot tub rash, had his water tested and had an engineer out to check the system. He was told to chop his hot tub up and skip it as it had a bio film infection in it and you can't remove it. Of course i didn't really know some stuff, i thought i did !! I told him to pop a 25 litre tub of hypo in there and it will kill anything. He'd already done it, and it didn't. His bio film had gone from the smooth surfaces of the hot tub where he could scrub with a cloth, but not gone from the places he could not reach, the hypo did not touch it. Sure enough i done some research and you will find its accepted and stated that Sodium Hypochlorite does not infact remove bio film. I can agree with these findings, as it never removed it from my filter housings either.

A brief google of some of the ingredients of bio film removers will lead you to the same ingredients as bio washing powder. They're designed to remove oil, grease, fats etc... from delicate fabrics at low temperatures. I've tried it and its worked. I'd already bought a replacement membrane so my intention was to replace it but try and cleanse the system out thoroughly before replacing it. If the bio removed crud from the membrane then that was a bonus. It looks right now like its worked. I take your point about a membrane being a fine sheet of stuff and fully understand that. Next clean i'll do a small vid to show, you'd have to see it with your own eyes. But in anycase i can't argue with the results, i seen the dirt come out, i seen the TDS come down and the new membrane is still sat there on the shelf.



Very strange hypo kills all bacteria or 99% of all known  bacteria especially when left to soak for an hour or so , one of the leading wfp suppliers offers a service ware they will sterilise your tank , pipe work etc they use hypo as a mate  of mine used to work for them and that was part of his job , the brown slime you describe is what I used to have in my tank but since cleaning with hypo every 12-18 months it’s totaly clean no slime or brown sticky stuff so it’s killed it off , Ido tend to go ott with the strength and add 15 ltr  of hypo to a 1000 ltr tank and pump it around the system for an hour or so then flush and re fill the tank a couple of times and never had it return , I do it now just in case .

Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2021, 08:44:50 pm »
After what you said I have googled bio film and all the things I have read says bleach kills bio film very successfully, so Ime a bit confused to be honest , but it worked for me .

Smudger

  • Posts: 13438
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2021, 10:49:33 pm »
I would suggest the brown bit is not organic - the brown has never got past the pre filters which are very brown (sediment filter) I assume it's mineral

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2021, 10:57:34 pm »
I would suggest the brown bit is not organic - the brown has never got past the pre filters which are very brown (sediment filter) I assume it's mineral

Darran


When I had it in my tank if you ran it through your fingers it was a brown slime on the side of the tank hypo killed and removed it sk assumed it was a type of bio film or organic growth ????

Smudger

  • Posts: 13438
Re: Bio Film Removal (RO)
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2021, 11:32:28 am »
Thankfully ive never had brown or even green residue in any van tank or the static tanks in the unit which have now been there 6 years

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience