[Moderator David@stives]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2006/e06061.htm

[Morph]

Thanks for keeping these links up to date and readily available, Dave

Pj

[Ian_Giles]

a good link Dave,

But it still insences me that they would consider banning WFP window cleaning, compared to almost anything alse, from a householder watering his garden or washing his car, and don't forget there are a few million people in the worst affected areas, and out of a town of say, 10,000 people only a handful of them will be window cleaners...lets say 20 for the sake of arguement, only 5 or 6 of them will be WFP, and most will be using an average of some 250-350l of water per day.

Isn't that an absolute pittance compared to Mr Smith down the road leaving his sprinkler on for just a couple of hours?
And there could well me hundreds of Mr Smiths in every town.
Hosepipes bans that stop people watering their lawns and washing their cars with a hosepipe DO make a difference.
A hose pipe running for 20 minutes will almost fill a 1000l IBC tank (we have good pressure and can do that with ease here)
So stopping a few hundred people who would otherwise have used their hoses could well save at least 500,000l of water on a Sunday afternoon alone! Minimum too I would say.

And doesn't it really, really annoy you when an advert for the water companies comes on urging you not to waste this precious rersource?
Yet up to 40% of the water supplied to London is lost through leaks that the Water board haven't repaired.
AND there are more leaks now than there were 25 YEARS AGO!!
An absolute disgrace, that statistic should be the other way around, and their profits are up too!!
Shareholders first, customers second.
Priorities that are totally wrong where water is concerned.
Get the Coca-Cola factory to cut production by 1% and in one week you'll save more water than all the window cleaners in the South East will use in months

Add in breweries and other soft drink manufacturers and any papermills that might be in the region and get them to also reduce production by a tiny percentage and you will have a real saving.
Still won't be even close to the wastage from leaks though.


Ian

And when you compare to a brewery (There is a Whitread one near us) that uses well over a million litres of water per day every day, it is truly pathetic that they pick on a handful of window cleaners in each town

[JohnL]

What really gets me about that statement is the attitude that health and safety is only relevant as regards hard legislation when it suits us. As we cannot allow you to use WFP then we suspend the HSE orders, ask you all to be very careful when using ladders but go and have a swim in your newly filled up swimming pool when you finish work and have washed the car!

What a load of nonsense from a government department.

Makes a mockery of all the HSE hype

sorry - rant over 

JohnL

[Moderator David@stives]

wfp is still allowed for now 

Dave

[poleman]

Ladders are not banned and if WFP can’t be used than the HSE know ladders will be used in the affected areas – so it’s best to advice to use safely, also within the working at height regulations hierarchy there is a provision for safe use of ladders, and also it states in the press release the first step is to avoid work at height where reasonably practicable which is WFP but as this might not be option because of the drought then ladders can be used but must comply to WAHR.

For some, it won’t be an option to go back to ladders as there work has been built around WFP, high buildings with narrow access ete, if it is an option for your business then great care is needed and plan all work, if you have not used a ladder for sometime, I would advice to take some time out and read thought some good advice here http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/fallindx.htm  
 
Page 13 is the latest thinking for are industry and new update guidance for window cleaners using ladders to comply to WAHR should be due out this summer.          
http://www.nfmwgc.com/documents/WINDOW_TALK_JAN_2006.pdf  
 
Andy    
 

[gaza]

ladders can be use if alternative methods ave been concidered,carnt see me going 3 high                                                                                                                       We were only 1 payment behind in paying water rates and they treatened us with a court case (talk about big brother}more like big hammers small nut.

if because someone gets killed will  the water board even bother to send a letter of condolance?

  gaza

[JohnL]

it seems we have some difference of opinion

on April 12  Philip Hanson posted - and I trust he will not object to my use of comments he has previously posted on this site.

Quote
If there is a drought order then yes you can use ladders

Unfortunately, no you can't.

Although the water companies would have no objection to the use of ladders and bucket for window cleaning, the WAH regs would be breached if you did a job from ladders that you have previously done with WFP.

Sched 6 of the regulations spell out the exact circumstances when it is permissable to use ladders, and "drought order" is not one of them.

This is the very reason why Southern Water (unlike Sutton & SE Surrey Water) did not argue that window cleaners could go back to using ladders.  After a risk assessment has concluded that WFP can be used for a particular building (or better yet, you have demonstrated by use that that the building can be done with WFP), using ladders is then in breach of the regulations.

This being the case, the DEFRA inspector who chaired the drought order hearing is likely to recommend a change in the wording of future drought order applications.

Instead, Southern Water concluded that water should be transported in if it were restricted.

The secretary of state has not yet ruled on the exact terms of the drought order, and having attended all of the hearings I am hopeful that the WAH regs will lead to a special dispensation for window cleaners.

It is also important to note that even if no dispensation is granted, WFP will not be affected until Phase 3 of the drought order.  The water companies made clear that if Phase 3 is necessary, the situation would be extremely serious and would almost certainly be followed by an emergency drought order (meaning standpipes etc).  They do not anticipate it will be necessary to engage phase 3, especially as average rainfall for the south east appears to be returning to normal now (March was the first month with "normal" rainfall for 14 months).

Even with all of that, there are some very simple measures window cleaners can take to make sure that they comply legally with the drought order, whatever form it may take, and continue to use WFP.

-Philip


clarification would be welcome

JohnL

[Moderator David@stives]

John

It is ok to carry on with wfp for the time being.

Also ladders are not banned.

Dave

[JohnL]

Oh, Good news then!   

JohnL

[rosskesava]

Oh....

So ladders are not banned?

Strange how so many wfp companies were full of almost but not quite 'ladder use is now illegal' and gave selective information that they were and when it comes to the crunch that should wfp get banned, they don't want wfp users to go bust and not ever buy or spend anything ever wfp again because of obvious reasons. Now wfp users can use ladders if they cannot use wfp....

Dave,

I am not in any way implying you have ever given anything but 100% correct information and this is not a dig at you at all.

It's a dig at wfp companies and how they will say what ever suits their financial interests at the time.

It's just how sometimes wfp is portrayed as the only legal way by a number of companies other wise you are breaking the law but with the threat of a wfp ban in some area's, then what ever happens, stay in business and just use ladders according to the WAHL's. Then after the ban go back to wfp.

Talk about politicians speaking from both sides of their mouths.....

[garyj]

A chap local to me has got around the drought issue quite nicely and will save himself a fortune in fuel as well.

He has fitted 2 tanks into his van, one which carries hydrogen and a smaller one for the oxygen, as these are both gases they are very light and save on fuel and tyre wear.

He then has a simple pump system which squirts two parts Hydrogen and one part oxygen straight into a small tank making his own water all day long. 

Genius   

[rosskesava]

Hi Gary

That is so clever isn't it. Especially the saving on fuel bit. I've heard that w/c's who do that save about 30% on fuel as their van is lighter.

Problem is that as the day goes on the fuel consumption increases as the hydrogen decreases but there is a company up north that is developing 'super' hydrogen bottles that will last the average w/c several weeks and can be filled at some selected petrol stations in a similar fashion to LPG.

Cheers

[garyj]

Thats good news Ross, no doubt as it catchs on it will move down south.
If worst comes to worst then the non-wfp users could carry the gases around in flasks and mix it up as they go. These could be tied to the ladders and make carrying them around easier as well.
If anyone is thinking of trying this don't forget you will need twice as many hydrogen flasks as oxygen.

[rosskesava]

You also have to have your work van/vehicle registered and licenced to carry both both oxygen and hydrogen by your local council which is not a problem as the bottles are the issue but non the less, the paper work has to be done first.

Cheers

[Sir Squeaky]

That would cost even more than wfp to set up surely....?
It's a bit specialist.

Wouldn't it be easier to just use a ladder for a while?

[Morph]

You could have the best of both....
Use the mop & squeegee from a balloon!

[Terry_Burrows]

I think you are going to see a rise in squeegee sales if wfp get banned for a while old habbits die hard

[Steve Lowe]

I think you are going to see a rise in squeegee sales if wfp get banned for a while old habbits die hard

Dont think so Terry! The first order for Sutton and East Surrey is through and Window Cleaners have won the day. Hopefully the others will follow!

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/federation_news.htm


Steve

[stuart webster]

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/good_news_email.pdf