[Sean Dyer]

I started doing some of the national 3rd hand subbed stuff late last year early this year

If you are already cleaning loads of shops in one area they can pay even the really cheap one

But they are more hassle than they're worth, i lost them all again in no time and vowed never to do another job that wasn't mine or subbed from an acquaintance which actually paid well

The trouble with the national stuff is lads who have little work or rubbish domestic work will do it as its easy cleaning even though the hourly rate is often atrocious , but they will skip and rush through to make it pay or even miss some completely

[Mike_G]

I do some for nationals, money isnt great but I can earn whilst waiting for other shops to open. I still do some old jobs which the nationals do, managers fed up with service etc, did Argos a couple of weeks ago, its supposed to be cleaned every two weeks and nobody had turned up for over 6 weeks, so the manager came and found me and paid me out of the petty cash. BHS is another which has just gone national, manager is now paying out of petty cash for windows because of the poor service, first the national guy turned up just before opening and proceded to water fed pole everything leaving the main entrance absolutely soaked, customers were slipping all over the place, they asked him not to use wfp and since they he rarely turns up.

[Londoner]

All business is an auction. More actually its like a Dutch auction where the prices come down. Tosh's analagy with tescos is good but I can give another.

Ten or more years ago the cab fare from here to the airport was around £20. Harrow Taxis quoted £25 and did loads. Today there are at least six more cab firms in the area that have opened up and some of them are advertising it for £12.50.
Thats an hour there and an hour back (no they can't pick up at the airport) plus the dead hour before when you can't do much else because you have a booked job. Fuel around £5 or more fees to the cab company and the running costs on your vehicle.

So what sort of person is going to work for about £2 an hour? I think we all know the answer to that

[jarvy]

You pay peanuts,you get monkeys!!
TBH after looking a the 'standard' of their work you would be better off letting a monkey loose with a squeegee!
 

[Londoner]

You pay peanuts,you get monkeys!!
TBH after looking a the 'standard' of their work you would be better off letting a monkey loose with a squeegee!
 

Yes but the people are there and they are prepared to work for peanuts. Thats the whole basis of the problem. Simply by existing they are a threat to us.

We can sit on our pedestals and say its ridiculous and it will not be good work but in the end money is like water, it all comes to the same level eventually. Thats basic economics.

£50-60 is a weeks wages in Poland. Poland is £36 away on easy jet. It doesn't take much to figure it out. We are already seeing an influx of workers from Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy because of the troubles over there. All round the med countries there are people begging on the streets now. Its noticable.

A British worker cannot survive on those wages but a migrant who is only here for a few months to blitz a bit of cash, sleep on somebody's floor and not pay tax is OK with it. France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.
A little known fact I learned this week is that despite being an EU citizen British people cannot work in Italy without a work permit and they are hard to get. You can't get a residenzia (permit to live there) without having to provide details of income and financial well being.

[jarvy]

You pay peanuts,you get monkeys!!
TBH after looking a the 'standard' of their work you would be better off letting a monkey loose with a squeegee!
 

Yes but the people are there and they are prepared to work for peanuts. Thats the whole basis of the problem. Simply by existing they are a threat to us.
We can sit on our pedestals and say its ridiculous and it will not be good work but in the end money is like water, it all comes to the same level eventually. Thats basic economics.

£50-60 is a weeks wages in Poland. Poland is £36 away on easy jet. It doesn't take much to figure it out. We are already seeing an influx of workers from Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy because of the troubles over there. All round the med countries there are people begging on the streets now. Its noticable.

A British worker cannot survive on those wages but a migrant who is only here for a few months to blitz a bit of cash, sleep on somebody's floor and not pay tax is OK with it. France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.
A little known fact I learned this week is that despite being an EU citizen British people cannot work in Italy without a work permit and they are hard to get. You can't get a residenzia (permit to live there) without having to provide details of income and financial well being.

I have lost countless jobs to 'em,massive piece of my monthly income gone.
I just look at the job they do and laugh now!
Even more so when i watched the traffic warden stick at ticket on the van outside 1 of my old jobs!! 

[Perfect Windows]

France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.

I'm afraid that is competely, totally and utterly untrue.  Polish workers in Germany and France need no permit and are free to work.

Vin

[g.brookes]

You pay peanuts,you get monkeys!!
TBH after looking a the 'standard' of their work you would be better off letting a monkey loose with a squeegee!
 

A British worker cannot survive on those wages but a migrant who is only here for a few months to blitz a bit of cash, sleep on somebody's floor and not pay tax is OK with it. France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.

[g.brookes]

sorry, didnt mean to post that without my comment.  my comment is this - how can you say that immigrants come over here and earn as much money as they can and not pay tax on it, and then talk about france and germany having a better immigration policy because they need work permits?  if they arent paying tax in the first place then they dont need a permit anyway!
to attribute this problem to immigrants is stupid and out of context.  we are talking about national window cleaning companies, not taxi drivers.  the nationals still have to pay a minimum wage, not £2 per hour.  i agree with your point about the fact other people are willing to work for less than us but please try and stick to the facts.

in general terms, as mentioned by a few on this thread, if this really bothers you than dont get involved with the chain stores! its a cut throat business where money is the bottom line, so either fight really hard, or work somewhere else and stop moaning

[Londoner]

France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.

I'm afraid that is competely, totally and utterly untrue.  Polish workers in Germany and France need no permit and are free to work.

Vin

No both countries invoked the optional seven year moratorium which ends about now I think. Then, whenever it runs out Polish people will be able to work in France and Germany if they can find anyone who will employ them which in France's case is unlikely because the French population is fiercely protectionist against foreign workers.
There are other reasons, English is the language taught in all the schools in Poland. Polish TV has a lot of english language prgrammes with subtitles so they are more comfortable with English. They get Coronation Street and Eastender (although what they make of it I can't imagine.) They also get all the American stuff same as we do.

German is spoken a little on the west side of the country and they hate the Germans anyway.French is virtually never spoken. So going to France will be difficult for them in more ways than one  

[Londoner]

sorry, didnt mean to post that without my comment.  my comment is this - how can you say that immigrants come over here and earn as much money as they can and not pay tax on it.

EU Citizens working in but not classed as resident in another EU country can opt to pay tax either in the country where the money is earned OR the country in which they are resident. In general that means neither as much of the money is earned through casual work of some form.

So if I sent you to Paris for a couple of months to clean windows for me you could opt to pay tax on what you earnt back here. But realistically, would you declare it once you got back........? Would anyone ever know? This is a loophole that is used a lot.

Workers working on the Olympic site all signed their contracts abroad. Some of them were working here for years but they quite legally didn't have to pay tax in this country. Did they declare it when they got home - I wonder

You say its wrong to attribute the woes of the cleaning industry to immigration (actually its migrant workers we are talking about) yet practically every house I go to that has a cleaner that cleaner is Eastern European. When do you ever see English people doing driveways or working in care homes. Even the dustmen round here are Eastern European. Where I take my van to be serviced all the mechanics are Lithuanians

Its only an extension of what happened here twenty years ago when builders and even window cleaners would come to London from South Wales or the North to work Mon-Fri then go home. Twenty five years ago my wife ended up in Hospital in Ibiza. The woman in the next bed came from Leeds, her husband was an electrician working on the new wing of our local hospital here in NW London.

Eastern Europeans work hard and they are good at what they do but simple economics means we cannot afford to live on what they can afford to live on. So they have the inside track. Simple really.

This part of North West london is the traditional epicentre of the Polish community in this country. The Polish war memorial is just down the road and we have Polski Shleps all over the place. There is a Polish free paper. I have worked in Poland (for a month)  and I will be going to Poland later this year to visit some of the battlefields with a group I belong to that visits battlefields all over the world. I like them and admire them as a people, I am certainly not against them.

But its Darwinian, survival of the fittest and the simple fact is they are the fittest. Which brings me neatly back to the OP. They will beat us in the long run its inevetable. They are not killing the trade, Its us! we are just failing to keep up. Thats the truth of it

I can remember all the same sort of stuff in a different context when the Japanese cars and motorbikes started coming into the country. Why would anybody want to buy a Honda Civic when you can buy an Austin Allegro? Or a twin cylinder DOHC Honda 250 when you could buy a BSA C15?  Jap crap they called it. Where is Austin and BSA now?

[Perfect Windows]

France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.

I'm afraid that is competely, totally and utterly untrue.  Polish workers in Germany and France need no permit and are free to work.

Vin

No both countries invoked the optional seven year moratorium which ends about now I think. Then whenever it runs out Polish people will be able to work in France and Germany if they can find anyone who will employ them which in France's case is unlikely because the French population is very protectionist.
There are other reasons, English is the language taught in the schools in Poland. Polish TV has a lot of english language prgrammes with subtitles so they are more comfortable with English. They get Coronation Street and Eastender although what they make of it I can't imagine. They also get all the American stuff.

German is spoken a little but French virtually never.  

The moratorium is long over.  France ended it a year earlier than they had planned in 2008, Germany in 2011.

Ill informed posts like yours lead to misunderstandings and can do no good at all.  If you're going to state what you think are facts, at least make sure they are correct.  Doubtless someone who read your "fact" is now spouting it off down the pub this evening to back up an argument.

Southampton has a huge number of Poles.  They do nothing but bring good to the place.  They all seem to have jobs, unlike the feckless, lazy good-for-nothing British kids who live around here who live on handouts.  There are maybe 20-30 Polish run businesses within a mile of here.  All of them pay tax in the UK - try checking the rules before you spout them again.  In general, if you're in a country for more than six months, you're taxed there unless on a contract.

Lazy "bogeyman" posting, I'm afraid.

Vin

[Londoner]

France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.

I'm afraid that is competely, totally and utterly untrue.  Polish workers in Germany and France need no permit and are free to work.

Vin

No both countries invoked the optional seven year moratorium which ends about now I think. Then whenever it runs out Polish people will be able to work in France and Germany if they can find anyone who will employ them which in France's case is unlikely because the French population is very protectionist.
There are other reasons, English is the language taught in the schools in Poland. Polish TV has a lot of english language prgrammes with subtitles so they are more comfortable with English. They get Coronation Street and Eastender although what they make of it I can't imagine. They also get all the American stuff.

German is spoken a little but French virtually never.  

The moratorium is long over.  France ended it a year earlier than they had planned in 2008, Germany in 2011.

Ill informed posts like yours lead to misunderstandings and can do no good at all.  If you're going to state what you think are facts, at least make sure they are correct.  Doubtless someone who read your "fact" is now spouting it off down the pub this evening to back up an argument.

Southampton has a huge number of Poles.  They do nothing but bring good to the place.  They all seem to have jobs, unlike the feckless, lazy good-for-nothing British kids who live around here who live on handouts.  There are maybe 20-30 Polish run businesses within a mile of here.  All of them pay tax in the UK - try checking the rules before you spout them again.  In general, if you're in a country for more than six months, you're taxed there unless on a contract.

Lazy "bogeyman" posting, I'm afraid.

Vin

Southampton? where is that? never heard of it. Us Londoners are not too good on the provinces.

But as usual you didn't read my post. EU workers from any other EU country working in but not resident in this country do not have to pay UK tax. Thats a fact. And its not six months, thats only for cars. If they sign contracts abroad it can be virtually indefinitely because our Civil Service has no handle on it. Totally beyond their ability to administer it. That is another big problem but not for today. A loophole like that is big enough to drive a coach and horses through. The British disease. I seriously don't believe the British government has the slightest idea who is here, what they are doing or where they live.

In France you need a Billet and an ID card to work anywhere. Even as an Englishman you try getting one. Even try finding the office that issues them. You will find it close to impossible as its not listed anywhere. A wall of total silence.

But I agree with you totally, the poles round here are great too, better than our feckless scum, you don't have the monopoly of feckless scum in S'ton.  I absolutely never said otherwise. What I said was they are beating us hands down at our own game and that is another fact. Which you seem to concur on. Please read the whole post before you start firing off your Mr Angry posts because you seem to actually agree with at least most of what I said.

They are winning, we are losing because they are better than us. And that is entirely our fault

[Perfect Windows]

"Tax residence

The country where you are considered resident for tax purposes can tax your total world income including income you earn elsewhere (both within and outside the EU).
If you move to another country and spend more than 6 months a year there you might be considered a tax-resident there. That country might then be able to tax your total income, earned or unearned, from all countries worldwide.

If you spend less than 6 months a year in another country:

    you would normally remain a tax-resident in your home country, that is, the country where you live. In that case, you would be subject to tax in the other country only on income and gains earned in that country."

From http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/abroad/taxes/index_en.htm


So, yes it IS (in general) six months for tax residency plus while you're abroad for fewer than six months you're still liable for their taxes on "income and gains earned in that country".  You're just plain wrong again.  You were wrong about working in France and Germany and now you're wrong about tax residence and tax liability.  And before you spout off about contracts, I said "In general, if you're in a country for more than six months, you're taxed there unless on a contract." above.  Most Poles round here have been here for several years and the ones I know (not all) are just in regular employment, so PAYE employees with tax being deducted.

There is no way to reconcile your guess that "EU workers from any other EU country working in but not resident in this country do not have to pay UK tax. Thats a fact." and "If you spend less than 6 months a year in another country: .... In that case, you would be subject to tax in the other country ... on income and gains earned in that country."

Saying "Thats a fact" does not make it so.

However, I understand that I'm just some kind of provincial yokel, so I'll leave you to have the last word. (Do try to quote some factual references in your response, as just guessing stuff and claiming it's factual isn't going to convince anyone at all.)

Vin

[Dean Taberner]

It appears to have turned it to a political debate on this thread.

All that I can say is that if you enjoy your windows then it doesn't matter about the money. A bit like how millions of people are prepared to play park football every sunday without being on 200k a week like some of these prem stars.

Get out there on the glass and have a good time, you might get the odd store manager who gives you grief but you get a bit of that in retail window cleaning.

Get yourself a nice new printed t shirt and wash your van off and you can always at least pretend that you're earning a good wage. If you lose a docket for any of the stores over the monthly period then you won't get paid anyway, so that removes the debate of the hourly wage because you'll be cleaning for free. Almost like a special constable of the window cleaning world. A volunteer type of operative.

Its only money.

Dean.

[mark dew]

They are winning, we are losing because they are better than us. And that is entirely our fault

You talk sense in the majority of your posts but who are the 'they are winning , we are losing?'
Stop trying to be possessive of stuff that isn't and never will be yours anyway.
ps a little tip for an easier life is to remember that, you will always lose while your trying to stop others from doing their thing.
It's shameful to begrudge others. And it restricts your ability to adapt. 

[H2GoKent]

Blabbing like a girl was the little guy who said don't blame me for nicking your business, I was just told to come and clean the windows.  Bullpoop by signing up to a large national contractor you are siding with the devil and putting a stake through the business heart of all the hard working businesss that by some means had originally won that business.  I do blame you  and all others that behave like Mary's little cheap lamb.

Sadly the truth is that none of us 'own' the work we do, and someone cheaper/better can take any of it, any time, that's just business.
If you have a run of 8 shops in a shopping centre like I do and a national chucks another your way, you take it on, why wouldn't you. But I pushed the guy's price up by about 40%, the work is still about £35 per hour for that shop.

For the shops national contracts can make sense, they only deal with one firm, they pay one bill each month, Primark went over to a national contract when their windy had an accident and then turned out not to have P L insurance, cost £100k apparently.

The message here is stop sulking and get on with some work.

[Jack Judd]

That is just one type of business model and if you have ever complained about the outsourced customer service model to india and alike then there is so  much wrong with the message of your response.  Call centres is a better metaphor than the Tesco example.  Companies cut costs and move centre to India.  Customers suffer and ultimately the brand of the company suffers and loses customers because of it.  Some bright innovative companies will then move the call centres back to the UK and market themselves as having a native speaking call centre.  This increased level of service quality is leads to more customers.  Now you can say it is moaning all you can say it is fighting for the business and trying to halt an outsoucing model that is detrimental to the company, and to the customer.  The only person who benefits is the guy that is measured on cost reduction.  I would rather fight for what is right for you and the customer rather than giving in.  And the fact the moderators are the nationals, I would be careful what you say .  They could be coming to an area near you very soon

[H2GoKent]

The analogy of call centre doesn't really fit for me. I think a better one is the rise and rise supermarkets.
When I was boy there were lots of little shops butchers bakers etc but not anymore Im definitely not saying its a change for the better but is a fact. There is a place for smaller shops but not in the same way as before.

The wc market has changed, one day it might change back but all the while shops are suffering and the big shop chains are answerable mainly to shareholders then it won't change.
You want to fight the nationals, I wish you luck but personally I'll be modifying my business model instead.
I still provide high quality work at higher prices for the customers who want it and a flick and a promise for those who want boxes ticking on forms.