[james roffey]

Did a stair carpet today, a wool berber was not really dirty gave it a good vac while doing this i noticed that where  the carpet is stretched over the nose the fibres were dirty at the base, i have seen this before and on one other carpet it caused me real problems with wick back so much so that i did not charge the customer and i was lucky not to have her accuse me of damaging the carpet, i explained that it was caused by dust/dirt underneath the carpet being pulled through and i had no way of knowing that this problem existed before i cleaned it.
Well this carpet today was nowhere near as old or dirty so i thought it would be ok, but as soon as i applied the prespray and agitated the nose became very dark even the tread was dark in places i attempted to extract but it was not great, i decided the best thing to do was stop on that first step which i did, the customers was fine about it, i want to know what causes this as i said this carpet was not all that old the marks were almost like draught marks and i wondered if air flow under the carpet could cause this soiling at the base of a carpet, i dont really see a way of avoiding this in the future as on other occasions i have just removed the soiling without this happening. so did not get paid for that job, the isolation valve broke on the job so had to fix that before going to next job, on the next job the customer did not arrive waited over an hour before i could get hold of them, to be told cant get back to let me in to clean the house, so loaded the van and went home without earning a penny. he's also booked me in to clean the flat hes moving out of so probably wont want that done either, what a day  

[Paul Moss]

We all get those days every now and then, so dont beat yourself up.

[Jim_77]

Jim it's probably bits of underlay that get broken down ito a powdery dust by repeated foot traffic on the stair noses - probably the worst place for wear & tear.

Not sure if I dreamed this, maybe a qualified fitter could confirm, but isn't the proper way to fit the underlay to turn it down over the nosings?  A lot of stairs just have a bit laid flat on top of the tread so the carpet is grinding straight against the wood, and there's not much stopping the crud getting sucked towards you when you go along those nosings.

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Underlay should be fitted over the tread and riser in one piece.

[Carpet Dawg]

James, what pre-spray did you use? I find both enzall and power burst effective on wool berber.

Did the carpet look old? did you ask the customer how old the underlay is or if it had been replaced at the same time as the carpet?

Doesn't sound like an underlay problem.

[graeme marchbank]

I had this recently too, pain in the butt I agree with Jim and Paul it could be the backing breaking up but there is not much you can really do about it apart from using a terry towel after the extraction

[james roffey]

I tried a terry towel, no good the carpet did not look old the base of the carpet on the noses was quite dark but clean or cleaner at the top how does that happen ?.
I used SPM to prespray been getting good results with this, i then tried some ultrapac when these dark patches appeared but as soon as i extracted it looked quite bad certainly not a good result, i have noticed that on some stair carpets a draught mark along the edges is it possible that it is being soiled from underneath by filtration

[Jim_77]

Only one way to find out I think - whip it up and have a look?

[peter maybury]

The only thing that this situation sounds like is that the pile direction has been placed wrongly on the stairs. The pile on a carpet always has to run down the stairs this is particuarly important with a look pile. It can be a common mistake as it is often not easy to assertain the pile direction. If laid the wrong way then the lenth of the loop will be exposed accross the curve on the nose of the stair.
Broken down underlay is becoming much less common as foam underlays were taken from the market place some time ago.  On the nose of a stair you should not have the draught to take any dust through the carpet. This is somthing that happens through gaps in floor boards or under skirtings.

Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com

[Carpet Dawg]

The couple of times i had underlay problems (i.e. it breaking up while cleaning) is A) it becomes aparant while/after the carpet is dry and B) it drys to a greenish powder/dirt throughout the pile of the carpet.

[Hilton]

On the nose of a stair you should not have the draught to take any dust through the carpet. This is something that happens through gaps in floor boards or under skirtings.

Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com

Sorry have to disagree,

On the nose of a stair you will have as much if not more air flow concentrated in that area for several reasons,

Most stairways direct warm air in an up wards direction faster than any where else in the house, most of this air will be soiled by cooking and dust, this air will get trapped between the carpet and the underlay and in most cases it will be aided and abetted by the wrong kind of underlay having been fitted to stairs.
Also hitting the carpet all day long will be the air and soil from doors being opened and closed continually, add to that the noses take the most impact and therefore soiling of any area in the home both front and back by soiled air then Its little wonder that they suffer the most.

Air easily penetrates through the stairs from all angles be it from underneath through joins and floor boards or from the top through the gaps in the carpet left by fitting over the nosing, this creates a 'banjo' effect where the carpet just under the nosing does not reach the back sealing it off, we know this because we can , in most cases, bounce the carpet back of the riser at or just under the nosing down to the riser, lots of air gets trapped here.

Most fitters will use the the same underlay on the stairs as they have used through out the home and in most cases this will be waffle rubber, by its design the waffles is made to trap air in the pockets so of course it will trap soiled air and every time its stepped on this soiled air will be pressed out and it can only go through the backing and out before being sucked back in again which is the reason why the soil is in the lower pile and backing. By the way the cheaper the underlay used the bigger the waffle so  more air is trapped so the potential for more soiling is there.

On stairs flat or crumb underlay should be used, years ago the wrong underlay specified and fitted was classed as a fitting fault.

To lessen the impact of soiling (in some cases its impossible to eradicate completely), on the stairs,gaps should be sealed before fitting the underlay ideally flat underlay should be fitted over the tread nosing and riser as one piece.Sealing adds to cost which is why practically no one does it now.

When I have come across stairs that are soil saturated I can almost guarantee it will be because of one or a combination of these circumstances and pulling back the carpet generally confirms this, when brought to the attention of the home owner the explaination is generally accepted, the choice to go ahead then is theirs.

As a footnote I have seen carpets that have been fitted for less than two weeks affected by the above and had to be replaced.

[james roffey]

Very interesting and detailed reply thanks for that.
I have wondered if this was a possibility, the fact that this carpet did not look that old made me suspect this was not caused by underlay that had disintegrated, i think in future i will take a very close look at the base of stair carpets especially around the nose, and if soiling is present mention it to the customer as a precaution before cleaning.

[peter maybury]

When carpet is fitted onto gripper we  hammer it in using a large rubber mallet and a heavy stair tool. It is hit in wth a lot of force the place where you get the least movement is over the nose of the stair. Any body who doubts this only has to go and inspect their own stairs. If there is any movement over the nose of the stair then yous carpet is not fitted correctly. Hilto I suggest you go out with afitter to see why you would not fit underay in one piece over the riser an tread. Even when rubber waffle underlay breaks down (and this does take time). the paper face will remain intact because there is only compression, There is no friction from movement. Hilton you should go out with a fitter to see stairs being fitted, believe me you do not get carpet movement on stairs.

Peter
www.queensland-uk.com

[Hilton]

Hi Peter.

thank you for the advice  

I have been on literally hundreds of installations, so I know how its done.

I never once mentioned that the carpet moves over the nose, I said quite clearly there is air movement over the stairs please re-read my post, I have said there is movement below the nose down the riser to the next tread, where you have hammered in the carpet over the gripper this is where a pocket of air that gets trapped, between the riser and the noseing,

No matter how tight you fit the carpet and I have no doubt you do a very good professional job, with out sealing you will still have air movement penetrating the carpet, on the smallest (area wise) footfall area of a carpet.

Its the air that moves over the noseing compounded by the fact the in nearly all circumstances the wrong kind of underlay is used.