[rosskesava]

Hi Ian

I'm not going to go on about the WAHL's. That is a well troden subject and off topic, I think, on this thread. Basically it seems to get read according to which side of the fence you work from so to speak but some aspects of working at height are now written in stone.

There is no question that anything that reduces ladder usage is a good thing and I'm just happy to never have to go up a 3 extention ladder ever again. In fact, even if by magic the law allowed working at height at any height by any means the person wanted, I'd now turn down any such work. I think I've lost 'my bottle' or got a bit more sensible.

I don't think my original posting was really off topic. None of these aguement or discussions would be occuring if WFP did exactly the same job to the same standard or better than traditional methods.

As an example for the negative side of wfp, we do 3 flats all in line on the 2nd floor of a large 20 story block of flats. The first problem is that the water goes down the wall into the flats below if their window are open. The second problem is due to location of the building. It is always blowing a gale there and by the time the water dries, the glass is seriously spotty because all the dust and dirt has then stuck to the water droplets. When done with trad methods, the same problem is not a fraction as bad.

On the positive side, we do 4 1st floor flats of another block 3 roads along. Those windows come up better than with trad methods because of the salt problem of being next to the sea. They also take minutes each with wfp instead of 30 minutes each with trad methods. And there is no risk of falling.

My point is that if WFP was the same or better than trad methods in every circumstance then these postings about this versus that and the debate about is wfp better or worse would not occur. Neither would the feeling by some trad users that they are 'second class' and about to die by putting a foot on a ladder.

Often, that veiw point by some seriously pro wfp users is not blatant or obvious. It lies there written in between the lines. A while back someone posted a question about doing the insides of a conservatory. Most posting were helpfull and to do it this way or that but one was about how a wfp user had put down towels, turned the water flow down and done the insides with wfp which was a brilliant success story. Those comments were both gross and subtle. Gross in the inferance that wfp is always better for every job and subtle in that 'look what I use' and 'you don't'.

Then there is the opposite by some trad users that a squeegie gives a better job but it seems to be more in defense of using trad methods than being 'better' apart from the comments that a lot of customers are unhappy with wfp which has been my experience also.

So to me, the bottom line of this thread is which is better? That is what I read underlying the postings in this thread. That is what causes the two camps to polarise and the posting to gravitate towards one method or the other and for seriously pro wfp users to push their point and some trad users to defend theirs.

That is what the heading of this thread says? Yes or no?

Apart from my experience, which is that wfp sometimes has a big hole in it's usage and promises, if wfp was as good as promoted then these debates would not occur as the fact would be blatant so as not to cause the debate in the first place along with it's associated postings. There would not be one side or the other. All postings would be that a w/c must have wfp.

So it comes down to does wfp do as good a job in every situation? The benifits are well documented but are the drawbacks and the many postings seem to rotate around that point one way or another.

One thing is for sure, the increased earnings are not one of those drawbacks.

Hi timdiv

I would say either your water aint right or your technic aint right

You may be right.

On the other hand last week we returned 3 times to redo the windows and on the 3rd time we used almost 20 gallons and the windows still looked terrible. The owner then told us we were the 3rd wfp users he'd tried.

We then out of interest done them with trad methods and they came up perfect. Now we have a problem because the customer now wants them done that way every time and for the money and risk - it's not worth it.

Cheers

[neil100]

If you beleive in the saying that " the customer is allways right " if you were a wfp and the customer asked for you to do it tradtional. Would you get up your ladder?

Some customers are happy with wfp, I know w/c who only do wfp cleaning and will not now do traditonal. But if you beleive in the stament above, and that quality is king then surley every w/c will offer both chocies to the customer.

I am switching to wfp, but if a customer does not like the results of wfp, and she wants me to revert to traditional methods then I will do so.

On the other hand if you were traditional only and customers wanted wfp would you be willing to invest your money for their benefit?

Nel.

[Ian_Giles]

I would agree with Ross in that there are some windows that you simply cannot do with WFP.
I do wonder at the reason though, most of the time it is because of the the way the glass is bedded into the frame, maybe the sealant used dissolves in a minutes way, or the pure water is somehow getting at at something on the inside of the reveal.
I think that sometimes it just has to be the glass itself.

I do a garage showroom, the one half is brand new, no more than a 12 month old, but there are two large panes of glass I always have to go back over and do trad, I don't even know why I bother doing then with WFP in the first place, the place is done once a fortnight and I've yet to clean these windows well enough that I don't have to go over them again
But this is a case of it being something to do with the frames, if I clean them spotlessly clean and then wash a patch in the middle of the glass  with the WFP there is no spotting at all, but go around the edges and it is there again.

Sometimes it is obvious and the frames are badly oxidised, or they are wooden frames and very old, the wood is slightly pulpy and the water draws out the cellulose and so on.

But in reply to Neil's post, no, the customer isn't always right (though I'll let them think they are )
The only time I'll compromise is on ground floor work, and even then, only if I think the customer has a valid point, if it is just because the don't like the windows cleaned with  water being left on the glass then they can take a hike
If the water is leaking through the door, or the frames have oxidised and so on, then I'll do the problem windows the trad way, or the entire ground floor if necessary.
If an upstairs window is leaking then I'll leave it, but its a no no to working off a ladder.
I'm very firm about it and haven't had a problem yet. You mmm and ahhh and you've had your chips, the customer wins, and if you do it once then others will also best you.

Just like with pricing, you tell a potential customer its going to be £10, they turn around and say you can have the job if you'll do it for £9.
Such a small concession isn't it?
If it's a good job for a tenner, it's probably a fair job for £9.
Tough!
Tenner or nothing
I don't build in a 'haggle' value.
If a customer only wants it done the trad way then I'll pass the work on to Roger

Overall I think WFP is better than trad, and in my toolbox, it is the tool that will get used the most.
But on the occasions where trad is best (or the only option) then those are the tools used.
For me the WAHD is meaningless twaddle, its useful to point it out to customers, but where I am concerned I don't give a monkeys about it.
Safety WAS a big issue in converting, but not because of the WAHD.
I'm well into middle age now and this gives me the ability to continue to earn good money without leaving myself utterly exhausted.
I've a worthless pension so this also means (barring ill health) that I can continue to work well passed retirement age.
Life is now easier and I'm earning more money than before.
The advantages massively outweigh the disadvantages.
On the majority of work you will do at least as good a job as you did before and it will frequently be a more thorough job even if it isn't actually a better job.

Ian

[KJG]

......................

But in reply to Neil's post, no, the customer isn't always right (though I'll let them think they are )
The only time I'll compromise is on ground floor work, and even then, only if I think the customer has a valid point, if it is just because the don't like the windows cleaned with  water being left on the glass then they can take a hike

.......................

I agree, the customer isn't always right ... but he is the one with the cash! Unfortunately, I'm not yet in a position to turn punters away, so for me it's what the punter wants - he gets. Yes, it's totally wrong but until my bank balance is fatter, I'm stuck with them.

If only I'd done better at school instead of wasting my time playing with Jackie Su****'s massive jugs behind the Pacman machine at the local cafe.............

[jayjay]

looool at that last comment. Thats how school went for me aswell, lol.

Id love to get a WFP but there pretty expensive for my bank balance and as im starting out im sticking with a pair of ladders and some rubber mats so that the dont slip, LOL!.

If i choose to go commercial when the bank balance is bigger then i will defo get a WFP but ill always have family who are willing to come into the business and do the domestic side of things, which is where im lucky really.

I hope by the end of 2006 i can afford to employ a right hand man, it wil be someone from the family but at least its sum1 i can trust and sum1 i can tell what to do and they wont give me cheek, lol.

I want a multi trade, i will eventually go into guttering and UPVC Frame cleaning when the moneys higher, as well as doing windows, by that time ill have a selection of employees.

[steve k]

maybe not the time of year to offer this advice but think twice about employing family or even close friends. It can be a sure fire way to damage relationships.

Good luck though

[pjulk]

think twice about employing family or even close friends. It can be a sure fire way to damage relationships

I totally agree.
about 15 years ago i went into business with a freind and it did not work out and we ended going our own way

But now i employ my son and that works out great for both of us.
He does it the way i shown him so im happy, the customers are happy and so is he.
I moan at him from time to time as now and then he thinks windows don't have corners.
But he's only 17 and at that age they think they know better.

I also employed my brother and that worked out great also until he moved away.

So for me close family works out but not freinds.

Paul

[Paul Coleman]

Id love to get a WFP but there pretty expensive for my bank balance and as im starting out im sticking with a pair of ladders and some rubber mats so that the dont slip, LOL!.

If you haven't already done so, add a pair of ladder mitts too.  IMO they are one of the best ladder safety devices ever invented (apart from rungs LOL).

[Ian_Giles]

Ahh, the thread is now running out of steam, time to lock I  think!

Too many replies are veering.

Hats off though, its been a good thread

Ian (in moderator mode)