[Simon Carter]

I'm sick to death of this working at heights bull. I know it's real & I should be aware, but most of my work is residential & who really is going to pull me up for using a ladder?. Ironically enough, I rarely do, having gone down the water fed pole route for my own reasons. I'm just curious what could be the ramifications of taking this attitude.

[Neil]

A lot of people have said to me over the last few months "what difference is this new law going to make if it cant be policed?" "If I want to carry on using ladders then I will, after all who is going to stop me?"
I always answer the same.
I did not stop using ladders because someone might catch me out, but because I have a family and if the unthinkable happens and I am not around anymore to support them or I am unable to work due to a major injury, you can bet the first question my insurance company will ask is

"Were his ladders safe?"

Neil

[rosskesava]

Here we go again.

Better stop doing DIY around the house then because you are statistically more likely to die or be seriously injured from doing that than you are being a window cleaner.

Also, stop driving a car. The pro rata death rate per year is just 5% less than that of a window cleaner. The serious injury rate is about 55% higher. So don't drive your car. As for your work van, you are more likely to be seriously injured driving that but I bet you don't worry about that.

Don't whatever you do ride a motorbike or a pushbike. 7 motor cyclist died pro rata last year when compared to window cleaners.

And so it goes on.

A lot of people have said to me over the last few months "what difference is this new law going to make if it cant be policed?" "If I want to carry on using ladders then I will, after all who is going to stop me?"

Not one single person whose windows we do has made a single comment but you've had the same question lots of time? Perhaps people around here are different.

I did not stop using ladders because someone might catch me out, but because I have a family and if the unthinkable happens and I am not around anymore to support them

Also, the good old 'wheel your family type emotional thing out to the firing line'.......

"Were his ladders safe?"

Sorry to sound abrasive but how about a bit of balance.

How do you know what the first question the insurance company would ask? You wrote it was a bet as to that but from where did you get that information?

Why does there have to be a constant WFP versus ladders type undertone?

Yes, as per the heading 'Sick of WAHD' - yes I'm sick of it because of all the misinformation that has been presented as fact and because the constant digs at  using a ladder.

You are more likely to suffer serious injury and death from using a ladder indoors for DIY of any description than from window cleaning. So please think on that.

Having said that I would rather use WFP's than a ladder. Of that there is no question.

And WAHD does not state anywhere that ladders cannot be used for window cleaning. I wonder why that is?

Cheers

Ross

[thewindowcleaner1]

I've used WFP's for about three years now not because I thought about the safty angle but it seemed an easier way to do the same job, do more work in less time and not be as Kn!!!erd at the end of the day.

I still use ladders as in some circumstances they are quicker as with most things in life with age comes common sense (most of the time)
and I am a lot more carefull now with ladders than I was a couple of years ago.

I believe that professional window cleaners who try to operate within the boundaries of the WAHD will be under presure to operate withing the guide, while the fella earning a little extra cash on the side will still get his ladders clean a few windows and stand the same high risk of falling of them (while cleaning windows) the figure for deaths won't drop and the professional will be put under even more pressure.

[jsm]

"what difference is this new law going to make if it cant be policed?"

My wifes a policewoman in Essex Police 

she can't lock up proper criminals anymore - so I think window cleaner's  will be safe for a bit

[Simon Carter]

I started this. My point has been missed to an extent. I use a WFP. That's my choice. I made that choice partly from a safety perspective. I have come off a ladder. It wasn't nice & frankly I was very lucky to only end up with seven stitches & nothing broken, but the choice to switch to the pole was mine. I made it before all this WAHD stuff hit the fan, but what if I hadn't, other than my own personal safety?. That's my question. I think in truth it's been answered. i.e. not one jot of difference. I have public liability to the tune of £2m that covered me for using a ladder. I certainly haven't had a letter from the policy provider telling me it's null & void. Just the other day, my w.f.p. kit was playing up. I still carry my bucket & ladder with me for those windows inaccessible with a pole over flat roofs at the side etc. I simply went back to my ladder for the rest of the day. I didn't fall off & no one arrested me & the customers didn't rush out & drag me down.

[Craig_Mawlam]

Bobbies will not police the WAHD, the WAHD directive will be policed by the HSE, in courts, at inquests, and by insurance companies after an accident has occured. If you do not employ anyone and you suffer a ladder accident then the WAHD will have little impact upon you personally. However the ongoing statistics that you contribute to will show that ladders continue to be involved in a high number of fatalities and serious injuries. In the event that the numbers do not drop then eventually ladders may well be banned, perhaps this evaluation process may take 10-20 more years, but gradually this is where legislation may take us.

The guy's who suffer are those who do employ people because for them the consequences of not observing the WAHD will be serious if one of their staff is killed in a ladder accident.

As it stands window cleaners may use ladders in situations when there is no safer alternative and this is a good thing. While ladders continue to be used safely we may continue to use them, but if the statistics show that the WAHD has had little impact then we may expect to see ladders banned in the future.

Rgds
Craig Mawlam

[Simon Carter]

So in other words, time will tell, but maybe, just for the moment, we have over dramatised.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a w.f.p. advocate. It's just that I have become aware that I have been over playing this health & safety issue. If the legislation isn't enforced or in time is seen not really to apply to self employed window cleaners, then those who have banged on about 'new rules' are going to look a little silly. Maybe we should all just calm down for a while & wait &  see as & when or if emforcement starts to bight beyond companies with employees.

[Craig_Mawlam]

Only time will tell if ladders are to be banned! The WAHD is here and now and does apply to ALL window cleaners whether they are self employed or not. How it works in practise is simple, it will be policed by all of the above and you will not be able to win commercial contracts (of any size) or local authority, schools, hospitals etc if you can not demonstrate compliance.

In terms of prosecution for failure to comply, you can't take legal action against a S/E window cleaner who is dead, but if he happened to be employed his boss will be prosecuted...

So there are two options;

1) Comply, either because you are responsible for those you employ, or because you value your own life.

2) Carry on as though nothing has changed, in which case you'll be fine so long as you never fall from height and don't want to quote for larger contracts. But if you do suffer a fall from height you will be adding to the statistics that will eventually be the nail in the ladders coffin.

Ladders are an important access tool for the window cleaning professional, the mis-use of ladders in the past has played a big part in the WAHD comming into being. If window cleaners fail to use ladders safely in the future then I predict that they will eventually be banned. If that ever comes to pass, then there will only be one group of people to blame.

Rgds
Craig Mawlam

[The Bear]

Hi Craig,

You seem to have a grip on the situation.

If a window cleaner wishes to only do domestic work and he goes to great lenghts to work safely, for the sake of his life.

Plus he chooses to continue with the traditional method, what impact do you think the regs will have on him??

The Bear

[Simon Carter]

Good question.

[thewindowcleaner1]

I seem to remember that every one got all worked up over the doom promised by the  millennium bug it did'nt happen, in part possibly due to the fact that all the hype brought the situation to every ones attention so we all took steps to try and prevent doomsday.
If all this attention to the new WAHD does the same then its worked.

[Simon Carter]

I think we mostly agree that for our own sakes, dispensing with a ladder wherever possible is a good idea, but the question is what in truth will be the ramifications for those individuals who choose not to join the revolution, other than their own impending death or permanent disability ?.
I know of a situation where some customers are about to change hands from a window cleaner who used a pole to one who will be using a ladder. The first operative pushed the health & safety aspect & the legislation. Will the new chap be justified in telling these customers not to fret?

[Craig_Mawlam]

Bear,

If domestic window cleaners work safely on ladders then that's great and it would be a good thing for ALL window cleaners because we will always need to use ladders in certain situations.

Simon,

Two things worry me about the ramifications for professionals if a section of the Window Cleaning community ignore the WAHD.

1) Their accidents will lead to the banning of ladders. This is especially true when you consider that many virgin window cleaners fall from ladders and these are the guy's who are so new to window cleaning that they have had no exposure to training, the Federation, let alone the WAHD. My guess is that there will be a lot of new w/c businesses in the Longbridge area this summer!

2) As more window cleaners adopt WFP's, their level of experience using ladders will fall, some may not even use ladders at all. Because ladders will be used less and less, when they are used it will be a larger number of inexperienced folk using them. If ladders are used by some less frequently then I believe that there may be a greater risk that they may be misused through lack of experience, just as in the new start w/c model outlined above.

What the WAHD does it that it makes it so much easier to lay blame and will be a great aid to the HSE and comp lawyers in bringing corporate manslaughter charges.

Rgds

Craig Mawlam

[geoffreyspecht]

i still use ladders to do council contracts am i breaking the law

[rosskesava]

Hi  geoffreyspecht

You are not breaking the law by using ladders unless you go over 9 metres or use them in a way as to be a danger to yourself or others.

There is an obligation on you to use them safely though. This includes ladder matts etc if needed or someone at the bottom if required and so on. In other words take all reasonable precautions.

You'd best ask the council anyway just to be sure and for your own peace of mind.

We have 2 council jobs and after being unneccarsarily panicked at first by some postings on this forum I asked the relevant person at the council and the above is what he said.

In my opinion Craig's postings above are the most accurate and balanced and he does run a large company. Maybe pm him? I think he knows more than me on this subject.

Cheers

[Simon Carter]

The more I read on this topic, the more I realise that it is going to be a slow burn.
A lot of Craig's comments are more about the common sense benifits of cleaning a window whilst stood on the floor. I bought a WFP for that reason, plus a few others, not because of Brussels, but I still carry a ladder & use it under certain circumstances. I appreciate that the significance of the legislation in time will be played out in the courts, but I think that's wrong. How difficult really should it have been to put together something that was clear & concise from the outset ?. The only thing I'm sure about is that I should have been a lawyer & not a window cleaner. They seem far more upwardly mobile than us if you pardon the pun.

[rosskesava]

Hi Simon

Craig's balanced approach to cleaning from the floor is one reason why we're hoping to go over to poles this year and the fact that I don't like ladders anyway.

There are some postings by WFP user's that make it sound like any one using ladders will die and leave a wife and family behind and that everything WFP is rosey and anything traditional is peddling in death and a waste of time.

The WAHD has also influenced me because legislation over the years will get more and more restrictive in terms of ladders, and I bet in the end, it will go the same way with poles because then it will be 'unneccasary back injuries caused by WFP' etc.

That seems to be how the EU works.

[Simon Carter]

You may well be right.