[TennetClean]

WCE, I think your answer is very revealing.

Firstly you are unwilling to answer the question at all.

Then you dodge around the question with stuff about risk assessments that is not relevant,

Then finally after much badgering by me, you do actually answer the question but word it in such a way that you give the impression that you don't think window cleaners need to bother obeying the law!!

ie "Technically" yes they are breaking the law.  LOL!  Theres no 'technically' about it.  They are breaking the law, simple.

Then immediatley you go on about 'how enforced is it?' etc, saying that in all likelihood the bods in charge will turn a blind eye.  WRONG. it IS against the law (as you have finally admitted) and I will be reporting people for it.

LOL no offense mate, but you're practically encouraging people to break the law and work dangerously.  How will you feel if someone reads your advice, takes it on board then gets prosecuted for not using a ladder clamp?  Or worse, kills themselves in an accident?  Whether it is enforced or not is not the point. 

By saying what you've said, it is pretty obvious that you are not bothered about the facts at all, and are more bothered about not upsetting ladder users.

However, all that aside, well done on FINALLY answering the question, though it was a bit like pulling teeth.

PS that pole guy yes i would report him because he is working at height.  Using a pole is not against the law, even in a busy street, unless you are disrupting traffic without permission.

[WCE]

Then immediatley you go on about 'how enforced is it?' etc, saying that in all likelihood the bods in charge will turn a blind eye.  WRONG. it IS against the law (as you have finally admitted) and I will be reporting people for it.

LOL no offense mate, but you're practically encouraging people to break the law and work dangerously.  How will you feel if someone reads your advice, takes it on board then gets prosecuted for not using a ladder clamp?  Or worse, kills themselves in an accident?  Whether it is enforced or not is not the point

I am not encouraging anything. Where did I in my posts say "Don't use ladder clamps you'll be fine" Actually I agreed with you  and then went on to say BUT how enforced is it? That is a subject for debate. At no point did I say that they wouldn't take an interest but at the end of the day H&S covers more than window cleaning and there are many breaches of health and safety laws everyday. Do you realise how much manpower even a simple prosecution uses? The paperwork alone is significant. If the HSE acted on every single breach they would have to have a workforce of thousands and the costs to the government would be massive (well above any budget they have now). In an ideal world this situation wouldn't exist and the HSE would act on every breach and prosecute everyone who broke the rules but in reality, they have to prioritize their efforts just like the police. A crime is a crime but it someone steals your bike the police  will give you a crime number and take some details over the phone. Most of the time you are lucky if they even visit the crime scene. But if someone is murdered then the police will put many officers etc onto the case and they will devote years sometimes to finding the criminal and bringing him to justice. The whole reason my bike gets next to no attention is because they don't have the resources to devote to finding it because there are to many crimes that they have deemed to be more serious and must take the priority. So I wasn't saying "break the law it's fine. Don't  use a ladder clamp you'll be fine" I was saying (for the above reasons) that the HSE MIGHT not be interested in bringing a prosecution against every breach and that maybe they would consider it a minor breach and that an informal warning is OK. They may be interested in big companies and repeat offenders but for a first offence where a WC is using a ladder without clamps then  do you really think it will get further than warning? I will be interested when you do finally report someone. I hope that you will report back on what action was taken and then I will know (although I do have my prediction) for sure. The other thing is have you considered that if the WC/S do just get a warning then they will     take the advice on being compliant with WAHD and then they can go and get the clamp or whatever and work safe in the knowledge that they are now complying with the regulations. The property owner is likely to of got wind of what has happened and that the contractor wasn't fully compliant with the regulations but that they now are. Then you come along to offer your service and what can you offer thats different?  Instead of creating an advantage for yourself you have actually helped bring your rivals back to level pegging. If you are so intent on taking these contracts would it not be better to just canvass the properties and sell the benefits of WFP?

PS that pole guy yes i would report him

 
 Forgetting the stepladder for a second (imagine he is stood on the ground),  I actually know him (and he is an idiot!) and know the exact location he his cleaning (I did the build cleans on the whole estate and have customers next door) It is on a busy main road through the estate and is also the main route to the local primary school. The guy has no warning signs, has he considered the danger to others? No. This is a breach in health and safety regulations in itself. What if he dropped his pole on a childs head?  How would you feel if that was your kid? He has taken no steps to reduce the potential danger. If you are working in public areas the very least you should have are signs warning of the overhead working. What's to stop a "ladder monkey" seeing you in this situation and reporting you. If you are working in a street and the HSE officer comes along and sees you working without any control methods in place do you think he will ignore that because he is on a crusade to track down the "ladder monkeys". If he thinks you are breaching regulations in such a way to  endanger the public then they may well prosecute you (do you have risk assessments for each property? What about a method statement?)

Using a pole is not against the law, even in a busy street.

Quite right, using a pole is not against the law but just because you are using  WFP and complying with WAHD you can't ignore all the other regulations. The actual pole isn't illegal but the way you operate with it could be.
You keep going on about your your BWCA training. Which course did you do? Did it cover H&S?
         

[BURNA]

I read this forum quite a bit and as a result, have tried WFP for the first time today.

At first, i found this thread quite helpful, but as usual, as i find in most internet forums, there is always 1 total numpty (in this instance...TennetClean) who posts utter poope and turns it into a pointless thread.

I'd like to post about the initial problems i encountered and would have liked to ask for some advice, but don't think i'll bother....


Cheers

[elite mike]

I read this forum quite a bit and as a result, have tried WFP for the first time today.

At first, i found this thread quite helpful, but as usual, as i find in most internet forums, there is always 1 total numpty (in this instance...TennetClean) who posts utter poope and turns it into a pointless thread.

I'd like to post about the initial problems i encountered and would have liked to ask for some advice, but don't think i'll bother....


Cheers

hi burna

take no notice ,please post as most will give you good advice

mike

[BURNA]

Cheers Mike, don't worry mate, i'm used to people like him. Just fishing between Internet Porn sessions probably.

Anyway...tried WFP today (Me and me Dad), just a practice run really on his house, we've got a Tucker Pole and Brush with a Sureflo backpack on a trolley (cheapest option to give it a trial)

His house is a 3 bed semi, we seemed to use around 17 litres to do it all (backpack nearly empty) i've searched around here tonight and it seems approx 80 litres an hour non stop is normal. I agree there as it took approx 15 mins to do his house. We cleaned frames first then glass. Wouldn't have taken much longer to do it Trad, but it was our first stab at WFP...

BUT, my main concern was the watermarks that were still left, even with a reading of 0.01 in the meter (274 pre DI, we use a vertical DI tank with 25kg of resin in it.) We even went over the house again and there were still the watermarks here and there where the spotting had dried. Theres no way i could walk away from a domestic job the way this trial went and expect no complaints.

Bearing in mind, the windows hadn't been cleaned for 5-6 months i should think, and the frames would have been dirty as me Dad has done them now and again trad. Me Dad is was on windows for donkeys years and gave me his round 10 years ago so we both know whats what when it comes to window cleaning.

Basically, i'm looking for a bit of advice and a few questions answered please.

Like is there a certain knack or technique to WFP to reduce watermarks?

Is Purified water supposed eliminate watermarks completely?

Is 80 litres of water used per hour approx the right amout to be getting through?

Cheers in advance.

[poleman]

In short, it will take time and I learned the hard way and did lost customers, luckly not to many, that was a first clean you done and some times it takes 2 cleans to get a good finish, you can help your self by making sure you clean all your frames before the move over to WFP and DONT use wash up liq as thats a night mare to get of the windows with a WFP

[sjm]

In short, it will take time and I learned the hard way and did lost customers, luckly not to many, that was a first clean you done and some times it takes 2 cleans to get a good finish, you can help your self by making sure you clean all your frames before the move over to WFP and DONT use wash up liq as thats a night mare to get of the windows with a WFP

Good advice that  Thats what im doing now 

[sherco]

I work a lot on construction sites, not window cleaning and i ask the site HSE officer if its against the law to use a ladder, and he said that if you are doing a job on a ladder that lasts more than 15mins then yes you need to change the way the job is done, but if your up and down a ladder cleaning windows its not against the law but HSE recommend save working practises of working with ladders.

[Jimmywidge]

If your working trad near where I live you may want to re-think your work practices.

I am starting a crusade to report ladder monkeys to the health and safety bods.

THE LAW IS COMING,

You wanna spend more time working and less time worrying about what others are doing -
you have been warned.

In short, it will take time and I learned the hard way and did lost customers, luckly not to many, that was a first clean you done and some times it takes 2 cleans to get a good finish, you can help your self by making sure you clean all your frames before the move over to WFP and DONT use wash up liq as thats a night mare to get of the windows with a WFP

Good advice that Thats what im doing now

[bad trippy]

Tennent if i saw you out on my round id give ya something really worth reporting and it wouldnt be to the hse either  :

[Blackbushe Windows]

Tennet is right as far as the law goes. Link on my website (Health & Safety) takes you to the relevant HSE page.

Interestingly, OCS window cleaners HAVE to use WFP at height, and many companies will probably require that no ladders are used.

I have been a domestic trad W/C'er for nearly 26 years and always use a stability device.  As long as you follow the regulations there is no requirement that you use WFP.


Peter

[Craig 72]

He may be right but there's ways of doing things.Grassing people up to the authorities is low.