[windows_chepstow]

I was talking to Ian_Giles in our town centre this morning and Ian pointed out to me that the 30,000 serious injuries mentioned in another thread could be ALL ladder related incidents; not just window cleaners.  That sounds a little more plausable.

He also said that the new health and safety legislation was a positive move in the right direction. 

As if on cue, another local window cleaner pulled up and Ian told me to 'watch'.

I couldn't believe his timing!

The window cleaner we were watching has been window for twenty years(ish) and he placed a long set of double extentions at an unsafe angle to reach a second floor window (ie third floor up).  He had a second floor balcony jutting out; therefore couldn't get the correct 'safe' working angle.

Now; I know this window cleaner and I 'know' those very same ladders.

They have NO feet left and the metal bottoms are 'folded and crumpled'.

He had an accident when the top section fell down, snapping the tips off the two 'teeth' that support each other.

So:  he had an unsafe angle with unsafe ladders.

Guess what he used as a 'Rojak ladder stopper'?

His green Unger bucket!

There could be an argument that banning ladders would help prevent people like this taking unsafe risks!

There's also another argument that if someone willingly takes risks (like smoking for example); then let them.  It's their decision and we shouldn't and don't have to live in a 'Nanny State'.

What d'you reckon?
     

[Stuart Webster]

Hi Tosh,

I think we will all have to produce Health & Saftey Doc's.

The guy you just mentioned would then be responsible for his own actions, maybe that would allow the rest of us, those who do work safley to get on with our job.

[Stuart Webster]

Ian is right, the new regs are a good thing. What is a problem is the interpritation by some.

[stevekennedy]

There's also another argument that if someone willingly takes risks (like smoking for example); then let them.  It's their decision and we shouldn't and don't have to live in a 'Nanny State'.

What d'you reckon?
     

As long as someone is participating in activity that doesn't put anyone else at risk then I don't have a problem personally. But the authorities would. As you say there is an element of nannyism in our society.

[Ian_Giles]

This Guys name is Simon, perhaps it should be prefixed by 'Simple'.

Simon does take awful risks, and he uses a folded up magazine as a 'wedge' to level his ladder up on a slope
Well he was today anyway, I was watching him using this self same ladder that Tosh (Windows_Chepstow) mentioned on another job with a sloping street, and that was second floor too His ladder was so far out into the road traffic could only just squeeze past
This was a narrow, one way street that feeds down past the local Lloyds bank.

Simon has actually had a couple of bad falls too, his first bad one was because he was using a ladder that was too long for the window he was reaching, this was also on a slope, a first floor window, the ladder twisted and he fell. Luckily for him it was on his head (no really)
I drove around the corner just as the ambulance arrived. He was unconscious for a while, but as he was coming around he was trying to stand up and get on with his work
They eventully managed to cart him off to hospital.

On another more recent occasion his ladder went from underneath him on a slippery patio, his one foot went between the rungs and he broke his ankle in a couple of places.

20 years ago when he once worked for me, he went to lower a well extended ladder, the top section slipped out of his hand and the bottom of the ladder leg smacked him straight in the head, flooring him, ladder was all over the place, the customer happened to be watching at the time too :

Not a ladder one this time, but when he was working for me, we were doing an initial clean, had put the 4 inch Unger razor scrapers into a squeegee handle.
For ease of use Simon just tucked the handle into his back pocket........
Without closing the blade first................He wiped his hand on the back of his trousers, blood everywhere

Some guys just never learn do they?

Health and safety? Not a lot of use if you just ignore it is it.


Ian

[rosskesava]

I have just spent nearly an hour trying to find the web page in the muddle that is the EU mummble jumble proposals but I read earlier the the WAHD is just a beginning and within 10 or 15 years ladders will be all but banned.

If I can find the link again I'll post it.

The main thrust of it all was that you cannot legilate for idiots so less ladders mean less accidents.

Simon sounds like someone I once worked with. He coupled up some (railway) wagons whilst standing between them because it was quicker................

[windows_chepstow]

This Guys name is Simon, perhaps it should be prefixed by 'Simple'.

Simon might have a cavalier attitude to his safety, or he might be thick; but his timing was spectacular.

After talking to Ian_Giles, I was in a hurry to get to my next job, and it wasn't till I was in the car that I was struck by the irony of what Ian and myself had just witnessed. 

And there I was last night spouting 'used sensibly; ladders are safe'.

Mind you; I was extra careful today, because if I'd fallen and hurt myself; Ian_Giles would've been on here laughing about it.  That WOULD have been really ironic!

[stevekennedy]

I don't think they will ever manage to justify a ban on ladders but I think they will continue to make them more of a hassle to use by insisting on more and more safety measures etc.

It's because of people like Simon that the HSE are ahving to bring in these new laws. Trouble is, Simon will NEVER change. He'll die before he reads the WAHD!

[pete fearn]

Its not ladders that need banning its unsafe practises that need looking at and more education on safe working practises, Get a regulation on education,ie all people working on ladders must have a trainning certificate and wont be able to get insurance with out it.
I personly wont stop using ladders and do use safe practises when on them and say KNICKERS to the TWHD its just more big brother telling us what we can and cant do, if i wanted that then i would still be employed in a factory making money for other people.
I know a lot of you on here will disagree with me but i say you do it your way but dont penilise me for doing it mine.


          Pete

[stephen d]

we started using the r&w on 99% of all our outside work earlier this year, lost a couple of clients , but not many but get more done and no chance of falling-the only we brake is the odd plant pot.domestic aswell as commercial

[rosskesava]

Hi Pete

I agree 100%.

There's also some interesting stuff with regards safety and WFP's.

It isn't all roses there either.

[Philip Hanson]

What is 'r&w'?

"Reach & Wash"

Reach & Wash is now a trade mark of Ionic Systems, and a system cannot be described a R&W unless its one of theirs.

However, you'll find that it has become a given name for any and all pole systems, especially by facilities managers.  Exactly like "HOOVER" is a brand name, but is so well known people call all vacuum cleaners "hoovers"

There's also some interesting stuff with regards safety and WFP's

This is also true.  There are manual handling issues when using poles, after all they extend to a great height and the potential "levering" action can put an incredible strain on the window cleaner's body if not used correctly.

Also, remember that carbon fibre and aluminium poles conduct electricity very well, and if a pole came into contact with an overhead power line while being held by the operator, the consequences could easily be fatal.  Indeed, there is at least one documented electrocution when using a pole (in The USA)

Also, remember that in using poles, we are dealing with a water treatment system.  In any such system, there is the very real danger that if not properly maintained, it could be responsible for a legionella outbreak that could result in the death of several people.

AND another important point.  If you install any water treatment system which incorporates REVERSE OSMOSIS in a residential building, (including a garage) you must get a permit from your local water authority, otherwise you are breaking the law.

The point here is : pole systems are not without dangers, and their complexity makes them less simple to maintain than ladders, but lets be honest, using poles is never going kill and injure as many window cleaners as working at height, and this reason alone is enough for us to consider switching over.  In the 50 years that pole systems have been around, 1 fatality (the electocution) has been recorded in the whole world.  In the same time, just in the UK approximately 500 window cleaners have died working at height.

I would encourage all window cleaners to at least think about getting a pole system, not because of the regs, but simply because it is safer than using ladders.  Yes it is an expense, and change is difficult for us.

But it need not cost you a fortune, and there are very good systems around at reasonable cost. If you plan it correctly, its possible to change over to poles and it not cost you loads more money.

I'll be preparing some material on how to go about getting a decent pole system on a tight budget, so that cashflow stays positive.  Its a time of change, and that brings opportunity for those who are ready to take advantage of it.

-Philip

[windows_chepstow]

I know a lot of you on here will disagree with me but i say you do it your way but dont penilise me for doing it mine.
Pete

Pete, I fully agree with you, Mate.

Under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms given at Geneva in 1950 and now enshrined in United Kingdom law in the Human Rights Act 1998, you are quite entitled to window clean in any way, shape or form that you wish.

To your detractors, tell them to butt out, or they'll be hearing from your solicitors.

[Craig_Mawlam]

Don't forget the human rights of those you employ and your responsibility to provide a safe working environment under the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974. If you do not employ anyone, who cares, just don't come running to me if you fall and break your leg! (that's what my mum used to say when did risky things as a boy).

Rgds
Craig Mawlam

[rosskesava]

Here we go again

Can we please get away from the WPF versus trad methods. Please.

Human right etc etc. Just how well does anyone know the EU law on that?

And just what does the 1974 HS act state about the self employed? I'd love to hear that answer.

And just why would I go 'running to you' anyway?

When your Mum said that you were a little boy. We are big boys now.

Please can we be objective and not emotive or emotional or pushing some hidden (WFP) point.

Cheers

Ross

[AuRavelling79]

It'd be very difficult for Craig to run anywhere with a broken leg!

Scene just after WW2 - old bomb site - Craig climbing over rubble in school cap and knee length short trousers.

Craig's Mum (wagging finger at Craig) "Don't you come hopping to me when you break your leg!"

Why am I posting this - am I completely Mad?

[stevekennedy]

  In the 50 years that pole systems have been around, 1 fatality (the electocution) has been recorded in the whole world.  In the same time, just in the UK approximately 500 window cleaners have died working at height.

I once cleaned windows for a farmer in 1994. He was elderly and left the running of the farm to his youngest son. One day when I turned up to clean the windows the farmer looked dreadful. He told me that his son had been electrocuted whilst carrying a ladder in the course of his farm work.

This is surely not an isolated incident. One should be careful when handling any long metal/carbon object whether it be a pole, a fishing rod, or even an alloy ladder.

Can we please get away from the WPF versus trad methods. Please.

No disrespect ross. But that IS the subject of this particular thread   
Maybe you should start a new thread discussing safe use of ladders whilst retaining the trad style of work 

[rosskesava]

Hi Steve

Maybe I was a bit abrasive.

The subject of this thread is 'maybe ladders should be banned' not is WFP's better than traditional method but I admit, they do overlap in a way.

It's more the sort of patronising type way than some replies are written rather than what the actual subject of them is.

If I wrote:- Well I use WFP so I don't have to worry if my wife will have no husband at some point?

How does that come across?

Alternatively I could write:- I feel much happier using WFP's because I need no longer worry about falling?

Basically they both say the same in a different way.

As for banning ladders. Today I stood at the bottom of a 3 section ladder fully extended watching someone clean 16 one ft square paines of glass. My heart was in my mouth the whole time.

I can think of no other industry or working practise where such risks happen on a daily basis.

Having said that, the vast majority of injuries and death occur from falls under 9 foot (I think) so maybe it's not the ladder, but the attitude and carefullness of the person using it as said in an above posting by Pete.

I worked on the railways for 13 years and I started off as a shunter (before privatisation) and safety etc was hammered into us everyday. One shunter came up with his own method of getting the driver to shunt the wagons together and when they were about 6 foot apart he would jump between them so as he was already in place to attach the coupling. One day he got distratched and was crushed to death between the buffers. The enquirey ruled that it was not the shunters job that is dangerous, but more that the way it is sometimes carried out contrary to the rule book, training and commonn sense.

I think it is the same with ladders except that with ladders,  there is no training needed or required. That I think is appauling. I think it needs licensing. Anyone can go out and buy the ladders and go up them even if they are an idiot.

But ...... I still think the risk is there even if every precaution is taken because there is always the unexpected.

Anyway, roll on the day we go over to WFP's.

Cheers

[stevekennedy]

maybe it's not the ladder, but the attitude and carefullness of the person using it as said in an above posting by Pete.

With you on that one ross. If everyone used them responsibily there wouldn't have been a new WAHD at all!

I know what you mean about the patronising manner etc. I think people are "high" on WFP at the moment. They are so convinced that they can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to use a pole.

There will always be a need for ladders in a wide variety of situations. Ladders can be made safe and when used in such a way there are no problems.

Personally, I find it to much of a scutter to make them safe and that is why I've gone over to WFP.

Some days I really miss being up my ladder but over all I am very happy with my decision.

All the best!