[AuRavelling79]

Newbies please note:-

Look at the link from Mark H - it shows what the HSE are saying to window cleaners about what is going to happen when the transitional period is over.

(If you happen to see an Ostrich with it's head buried in the sand as you browse this forum then tip-toe quietly by and try not to scare it!)

[rosskesava]

I think there is a bit of confusion here.

Firstly, what was quoted to do with Windex is not an HSE quote. It's best to quote the source rather than quote a source with a vested financial interest.

The HSE fully reckonise that ladder are, if used correctly, an acceptable means to clean some windows. The HSE also reckonise that the wheels of business must turn.

If you use the arguement, as you have above, that the safest option must always be used, then ladders are banned not only for window cleaning but for everything no matter what trade or job of work. That clearly is not the case.

The 'safest method possible' is for the job of work being undertaken. If that involves ladders then the regulations must be complied with. Ladders can be used for work of short duration and includes window cleaning to an extent.

Otherwise, you'd never see a single ladder at any building site or anywhere, ever. Or are they all breaking the WAHR's?

Can anyone show me a single statement on a HSE website that ladders are banned? Or will be banned at some undetermined time in the future?

The point I was making was not wfp v trad or whether working at height is safe or not, the point I was making was if a statement gets posted implying what the HSE will do, then is that information accurate? It's a fair question surely?

I was trying to be diplomatic and I'm not trying to paint any picture. I am fully aware of the point of new legislation. Also, of course ladders will the cause of the  majority of falls from height, just as the greatest amount of deaths in the fishing industry will be caused by those who go out fishing.

That was not either the question I asked or the reason I asked it. I was trying to be polite and diplomatic about a statement being made that may not possibly be true while accepting that it may be.

It's best to deal with what is factual rather than try to second guess what will be and then treat that as factual also. It confuses people.

What's the 'pass the batton over' thing about?

Cheers

[AuRavelling79]

Firstly, what was quoted to do with Windex is not an HSE quote. It's best to quote the source rather than quote a source with a vested financial interest.



Cheers

Ross, it is an HSE quote - it's what they said at the Windex 2006 seminars. Read it again.

[rosskesava]

As for the Windex quote, it is a part of what the HSE said. Just a small bit. Isn't this a bit like how they quote things in the papers? They quote a bit of something which is edited to give the exact impression that is wanted for a particular reason? That wasn't all that the HSE said? Just a few sentances? What else did they say or how about a link to the entire speech?

I go back to my original point, where and when have the HSE said that ladders will be banned or implied it beyond any doubt and where did that bit of information come from?

Sorry but it's a simple question.

Cheers

[Moderator David@stives]

There is not going to be any transitional period , that statement is now quite old.
The HSE have been back tracking over the last 2 years and they wont be banning ladders for window cleaners.

Can anyone show me any links from the HSE website about a transitional period.

I would urge everyone to read Ian Greenwoods statement from newsnight

Quote  "  Ladders are not banned but should only be used where it is sensible and safe to do so , and where all alternative methods have been considered"

That was the last verbal public statement made by any HSE spokesperson.

Dave

[Sir Squeaky]

Exactly Dave.

People still haven't read the bit which says no problem on 1st floor under 6 meters.

[M4RK]

The statement was made March 16th at windex 2006.
The seminar program is still on the windex site:
http://www.windex.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=20&Itemid=28

The statement by Ian Greenwood on Newsnight was made September 2005.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05110.htm

If any further statements have been made since March 2006 I'd be interested to know.

Mark

[poleman]

It will still take time to reach agreement,  but meantime all window cleaners must face up to the alternatives to ladders that are emerging and consider how best to comply with the law.

Where there are clear problems with using water fed poles it may be that ladder use will be the only option for small domestic window cleaners but equally the industry’s traditional one man bands and their customers may have to further adapt their techniques or that new business structures and practices become the norm.

But if this leads to fewer avoidable deaths and
injuries in a thriving industry, is that really so bad a prospect?

Andy

[M4RK]

Just reading through that press release from Sept 2005 and the phrase used is:

"These Regulations do not ban ladders but say they should be used only when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out. A risk assessment must show that the task is low risk and of short duration, or that there are site features that mean other equipment is not appropriate. If so, then ladders can be used"

Tie that in with what was said at Windex March 2006:

"Situations where ladders may be suitable:

On ground floor windows both internally and externally using ‘A’ frame ladders.

Internal of high windows in schools, shopping malls, atriums etc.

Up to and including 1st floor using ladders no more than 6 metres on domestic and small commercial properties.

Removal of heavily impaced soilage. Eg. Builders Cleans

To access windows above flat roofs.

Where the number of windows to be cleaned at height is very small relative to the total, making use of more expensive access or cleaning methods unreasonable
(eg. Less than 6 1st floor) on an isolated property.

On city centre red routes and in other areas where you can’t get the waterfed pole van near to the building to be cleaned and trailing hoses would cause a hazard.

On properties where the use of a trolley system is not suitable because of site conditions (i.e steps or other physical obstructions)

On isolated domestic and small commercial premises. (i.e in rural locations where you may have, say only one two houses on a street/housing estate.

On domestic and small commercial premises where ladders are required to access above a flat roof and there is a limited number of 1st floor windows which are not above a roof."

[rosskesava]

Hi Andy

Nicely put.

Dead accurate and to the point. I think that is so much more a worth while way of putting things than 'ladders will be banned'.

I think most of those who post on here are genuine in that they mean well. It's just sometimes it comes across wrong. Well it does to me but maybe I'm a bit fussy.

[M4RK]

Here,  here.

The way I see it is that ladders will never be completely banned.
The HSE are sensible enough to realize that people are going to continue using ladders for a long time.

If an accident happens though,  when ladders were being used and no risk assessment has been done, that's when your in trouble.

If a risk assessment has been done and you can justify why ladders were used, then no problem.

If you use ladders and that's it, and your work is suited to doing it by safer methods, then why wouldn't you choose to use a safer method?

I guess it comes down to either the perceived expense of WFP or
A reluctance to change work habits.

Mark

[Sunshine Cleaning]

Yawn

[M4RK]

Your'e right bear - it's past my bedtime too 

Goodnight.

[rosskesava]

Hmmm.

I don't know about a reluctance to change work habits though? I think it is more than that. We use both wfp and trad methods so I speak from both camps.

For some jobs wfp is a waste of time. If the law said we had to use wfp then those jobs would be abandoned. Conversely, for some jobs wfp is the dogs watsitt's and as for doing them trad, absolutely no way.

Maybe some are reluctant to change but you only have to read wfp posts on this forum to understand why and I'm not knocking wfp.

With regard the WAHR's, as I understand it a window cleaner must have an alternative means of cleaning windows, assess the risks, ands then decide what is the most appropriate means. That 'alternative means' can be simply an extendable pole which a mop and squeegie can be put onto.

Provided for each job he has gone through that process of deciding, and he has done some type of risk assessment, the the WAHR's have been complied with.

I didn't know the maximun height was 6m with a ladder. I always thought it was 9m but only if the ladder was secured above 6m.

Nice to read some sensible and accurate postings about the WAHR's.

Hi Bear

What is boring to you maybe of interest to others. Please be tolerant.

Yup. My bedtime nearly also but  not untill cheese on toast with Lea and Perrins.

Yummie.

Cheers

[JohnL]

I can see Foxman having the pack chasing him after that!

and I am working away for a week so I look forward to viewing this all other threads when I get back

JohnL

[mark f]

the way i see it is this. Im getting kitted out with wfp and will use it as and when i think it is a valuable tool else i will use ladders.

 If the hse stop me and say why are you up a ladder i can say because it is the only way i can do a good job on this particular job but if you want me to use wfp i have it and will use it. No problem.