[Mike_Boxall]

Ok our first topical window cleaning poll. Should be interesting.

These changes will affect many areas of the cleaning industry but will have a significant impact on those window cleaners who currently rely on ladders for high level cleaning.

What you you think?

For more information about the new changes please see Philip Hansons topic here:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Equipment;action=display;num=1080679821

[simonb]

RU saying the new regs will not affect most window cleaners who only do ground and first floors. This is referred to by my insurance company as "NORMAL BUILDING HEIGHT" and I am only insured and will go this high.

[tom_currie]

ladders must be regulated. 10 deaths a year is 10 to many

[BeeClean]

isnt it the same as the compulsory weraing of seatbelts nobody likes to feel they cant make their own decisions but we all know it makes sense surely

[Reflective Property Services]

The reason seatbelts are compulsory is that they reduce the risk of injury in case of an accident.  Even where they are worn, it is possible to sustain serious / fatal injuries. However, this does not stop people from driving; rather they take reasonable precautions to make sure they are driving in a safe manner, and when they do not, they get pulled over and penalised.

Similarly, regulations should not stop people from using ladders, they should make people take reasonable precautions to make doing so safe. Admittedly, this can be difficult above 2nd storey windows, but anything below should not be a problem. There are plenty of steps that can be taken to make it safe eg, making sure the ladder is at the correct angle, the feet of the stiles are firmly set against the ground etc. Accidents happen when people get over-confident and dont bother with basic precautionary measures, which is why it has been deemed necessary to bring regulations like these in.

[Ian_Giles]

The problem with having a raft of regulations is that most people won't understand them.
If you are working on sites, or in the public domain as against someone's back garden, you can expected these new regs to affect you to a far greater extent than if you are working housing estates.

When things start to get complicated, the ordinary man starts to get confused.

Working off ladders is inherently risky, even when your ladder has been erected correctly, you can still have an horrendous accident if your foot slips on a wet rung.

But though safe practice should always by undertaken, you cannot elliminate all risk, and you cannot remove the human element.

Many on here squawk about the 10 deaths a year and piously bleat about it being 10 to many. But there are more deaths caused as a result of going to hospital to be treated for one thing and then dying from some unrelated infection due to poor hygene practices, now that to me  is truly criminal.
If you slip or fall from a ladder at least it is as a result of your own carelesness.
Safety regulations are  there to protect us from ourselves, but at what point does it become top heavy?

Even when you follow the regs, if you are working on a first floor window, over reach and lose your grip, you are going to be hurt, maybe even killed, and you will be only a few feet above ground.
If you want to stop the 10 people a year dying as a result of accidents with ladders, you ban ladders (re Holland) period.
Working on first floor windows does not mean this is safe, it isn't.
But unless the ladder is tied off and safety harnesses are used (and you still have to climb the ladder to tie it off!) you won't stop accidents occuring.
The sensible tradesman will follow safe procedure and not take risks.
All the rules in the world won't stop the idiot who thinks he knows best, and he and his ilk are probably the ones who end out in the back of an ambulance or a hearse already.

If people work of ladders, regardless of height, accidents will continue to occur, deaths too.

At 48 I have had enough of the risks involved of climbing up to 35 foot up a ladder, I am in fact relieved that the safety regs are being tightened as it has given me the impetus to go for WFP, the chance of me now becoming a ladder fatality will now be massively reduced.
I still don't like the State trying to wrap me in ever greater layers of cotten wool though.

Ian

[Polepro]

It was actually 49 deaths from falls from ladders, 11 of those were fellow window cleaners. In addition you have to consider the remaining 4,000 serious injuries caused through falls from ladders.

If you worked in any other industry accident statistics like these would not be tolerated, are window cleaners lives worth any less?

Tom

[Ian_Giles]

Tom,
So what number of deaths are acceptable?
Daft question, doesn't need an answer.
If people climb and work off ladders there will always be serious accidents and fatalities.
There wouldn't be any if everyone followed the existing guidlines.
Accidents happen when people get over confident or careless.
Unless they are working on supervised and regulated sites, individuals won't pay any attention to the regs, most won't even be fully aware of them, and most window cleaners are one man bands. They will continue to use a bit of stick for a wedge to level up their ladder on sloping or uneven ground, they will continue to dig their ladders into soft earth and lawns (not allowed in the proposed regs).
Working off ladders is high risk compared to most other industries, it isn't something you can automate.
If you really want to do something about ladder related accidents then you ban working off ladders, at any height. lets face it, expensive though they may be, there are always alternatives.

(and please, to be honest I am really only playing devils advocate here, I do enjoy putting an opposing point of view, but I do like to think it is a legitimate one. Debate is good! opposing viewpoints can be good for others to read and hopefully spur them on to putting in their own opinions!!)

Ian

[T.W.C]

www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr205.pdf

[Ian_Giles]

Ye gods! have started reading it, pretty turgid stuff, but does have a few interesting points.

One of which is that there are more low falls causing serious injury than there are from high falls.
And a low fall is one from under 2 metres.

Yet another little point is that falls from under 20ft usually end out with the person landing on their head (76%) Whilst those from higher falls, 63% end with the individual landing on their feet.

One more point of interest;
Did you also know that 10% of falls are in the final step whilst descending the ladder, and often result in serious injury?

How's that for working at height then, eh?

[tom_currie]

i wonder at results so far if the no vote is one man working or no wfp voters

[geoffreyspecht]

its sad i know life is just one big risk here today gone the next that just about sums it up