[jonboywalton75]

I think he had a THING for me. 
I attract that sort of attention for some reason, even when I say I'm married
You need to think of your health and earn a living
Getting the right balance is hard though
Take it easy mate

No??  You think so really, or you just joking with me   He has got a wife, mind you when i went there with you he would not stop chatting and always asks after you, yet he rarely talks to me, sometimes even if i make the effort lol!

You too, take it easy pal

Just joking, I think so anyway 
I couldn't get away from him when I cleaned there though

[jonboywalton75]

Sorry to hear about your health issues
Hope you get sorted in the long term
All the best

Cheers Jon




Hope your well!  You still planning on retiring this year? 

This Year!!!
Got 7 years until retirement,
I think
Youngest son gets married in July
Spending like nobodies business 

[AuRavelling79]

"How did I get away with sick pay?"

Well, I didn't. As mentioned above an employee is entitled to SSP after 5 days. SSP is minimal and so I took the view that an employee wouldn't want to go on it needlessly. In the two page agreement I covered:-

1. Not taking work (for one year) or working within a short distance of my work (for 6 months). Those time periods I was advised were "reasonable" as an employer cannot stop a person from working unreasonably. (Courts would decide the outcome if someone stole work if it got that far as it is a civil matter)

2. Guaranteed hours and basic times; holiday based on bank holidays and contracted hours worked per week. Bonuses.

3. What happened to my losses if he pranged the van or broke kit. (How much he would pay - which was basically uninsured losses, so if he pranged the van I could reclaim my uninsured losses from him - an event which never happened.)  I think a pump "broke" when he was fitting it but I took the view that as I asked him to do it and he isn't an electrician or then that was my look out so I paid for that. He also dropped a ladder on a customer's old car and dinged it which cost £125 to have filled and sprayed and I did tell him I expected him to pay for that which he did.

4. That I would provide PL and other necessary insurances.


Don't forget it was my son-in-law. At the end of the three year period he had probably only had less than two working weeks in total off for sick and I said (not in writing) to him that if we hit our targets for the month/quarter then I wouldn't dock his pay either.

If he had had a long term situation then it would have been a different matter.

......

If I was taking on a non "known" person I would take legal advice and accountancy advice as per Solar Steve's excellent and helpful post. But I or my wife would do the donkey work (PAYE and contacting HMRC) based on that advice rather than pay further top dollar for them to do it.

[Susan Dean (1stclean)]

So, due to a work related accident in 2014 i have had problems with my back and neck, worse than they already were.  It's been giving me bad grief especially so for the last year or so.  I'm waiting to have a scan and see if there is anything that can be done, but either way my doctor has advised me that having a physical working job full time isn't going to help with my back problems, longterm could make it worse.  Sometimes i go through weeks of agony, to the point where every day working is an absolute grind and a real struggle.  So until such a time where my back is miraculously fixed and free from pain and stiffness, i need to work towards making some changes to my business.

So i'm looking into now employing somebody to ease my workload.  I have another business which i do part time which isn't physical and sedantry, so i can do this to subsidize my lowered income from employing somebody to clean windows for me.  My plan is to go from full time to having a full time employee and then myself work towards being part time window cleaning 2/3 days a week.  Also, if i get a few weeks where my back is worse than normal and sometimes in alot of pain, then knowing that i have somebody that can run the rounds for me is a massive relief, meaning the business can keep functioning.

I've never employed anybody part time/full time who i intend to send out in a van and to work by themselves.  I have looked into all the costs of an employee, including holiday pay/National Insurance/New Pension Scheme/ Paye/Payroll/Employers Liability insurance etc..  Plus all of the normal costs of running the business + potentially getting another van and kitting out so we have 2 on the road.  Looking at all the figures i can still see that even with 1 employee it would still be fairly profitable.

I'm just mainly looking for any advice or tips from those of you who already employ can give me.  I do have a few questions though if anybody can answer these for me.

Is there any way to protect yourself from an employee stealing your work and setting up themselves?  Contract through a solicitor?  I am thinking of employing only those 25+ for van insurance costs more than anything.  Also thinking that, switching nearly all customers over to online/direct debit payment is also safer, so that employee is rarely dealing with cash from customers.

I'm thinking of paying my member of staff £85 a day, with a target goal for him to hit of £250(not london prices).  Anything after that i will pay 30% commission on all work.  I may even just pay him commission only of 30% for all work he does.  This way it works as an incentive for him to work hard and fast, obviously making sure quality isn't sacrificed and losing customers.  3 Strikes and he's out!  how do you pay your staff?  I don't want to pay minimum wage, i would rather pay more and get more commitment out of a worker.  Happy to pay £10-£12 if necessary if things work out well.

I am worried about sick pay though, is there any way round this?  Such as zero hours contract work?  I do want to employ, but ofcourse if an employee was off work with a broken leg or something for 3 months, then the business wouldn't pay to keep running at all.

No i dont want to sub contract work out, or franchise.  Right now i would rather employ work towards getting my employee full time in a van on the road, then i can work 2-3 days a week on the tools in the other van, rest of the week i can take a more sedantry role in my other business just to top my income up.

If anybody can also list any of the minor/major problems that go along with employing, just so i know what to expect and make sure i have a realistic approach to this.

Literally just after anything at all that anybody on here can advise with or share your experiences with employing.

Lastly, if anybody has any documents they can share with me i would appreciate that.  Mainly looking for contract between employer and employee for window cleaning, and also interview applications, and any other documents for that matter that could be useful to me.  Ofcourse documents that are examples, to which i can edit for the finer details.

Thanks guys, appreciate the help anybody can offer on here.


 

Hi. I used to be a sole trader 4 years ago, but now employ 5 office staff and 5 on tools. Employing and the legality surrounding it is a minefield, but not one that can't be navigated.

Your question in paragraph 5 about protecting your work, you can have your employee sign an anti-competition clause as a separate document or include it in your Statement Of Main Terms. All of my staff sign one which protects my client base and prevents them setting up their own company carrying out your type of work for up to a year. It means they can't use you as a 'training ticket', then clear off and earn more doing it themselves. They do work. I invoked mine for an employee who took great delight in telling me that he was off to set up his own company now that I had trained him. I took greater delight in showing him his own signature on the Anti-Competition Agreement he signed nearly two years previously. He window cleans now, but did office and factory work for a year before he could set up his company. I agree with the rest of paragraph 5.

Paragraph 7. Sick pay needs to be taken out of your profit calculation. During interview phase, you are entitled to ask how many sick days they had off during the previous year. You can check with their previous employer if they provide them as a reference.

The main drawbacks are monitoring the activities of your employee and the quality of their work. This can be done by fitting a tracker to your vehicle. They not only tell you where they have been, but incidents of speeding and even hard acceleration or heavy braking. All of these have an impact on your fuel costs and wear and tear of your vehicle. No news from customers is usually good news regarding quality of work.

Regarding documentation, a quick Google search will give you basic documents. However, having documents is one thing, but knowing how to LEGALLY uphold them is another. If you are employing, YOU NEED TO KNOW YOUR RIGHTS AND THOSE OF YOUR EMPLOYEES. Legality changes every year and making an error means you may not be able to dismiss the employee you really need to get rid of.

I pay Peninsula Employment Law a monthly fee and they provide all documentation, legal advice, supporting letters etc. It is worth every single penny in my opinion. Whenever I need to act or gave a situation thrown up, I contact them and I know I am acting in a legal way towards my employees. They are a massive help, even at 3am when you are wide awake fretting! They provide 24/7 service to you.

That's my twopenneth worth. I hope some of it helps you and others.

And some on here say I don't contribute! 

trouble is with this is  if hes swiched on ready for you with his legal team advising him from the start   its going too  cost you over  10k and three years worth of time  to get too court ,  if you do win  on the last day of the court case  hes all ready gone out and got a massive bank loan , upped his cards too the max took his name off the morage , got and brand new van on tick just waiting for the fine . you get the judgement in your favour , he still wont pay you of your  your costs ect ect ect

two more years later again at a different court  you still wont have any money   , now  his wife,daughter or  son as now bought  his  business  meaning your high court sheif makes him bankrupted , wiping it all away , so after 5 years of court over 14k in bills you get northing making that bit of paper he signed worth as much as toilet paper he wipes his arse with so not only have you lost your work plus 5 years off your life and over 14k in bills you get northing  just happened to a builder we know

[RO-Sheen]

I have a guy that helps me whenever I fall behind (which is very often!) He is self employed and helps out 3 other local window cleaners too. He also has a little round himself he does in his own village. 
As we always work in pairs  I pay him 25% of the work we do so in other words we often clear £400 a day so he gets £100 and I get £300.  He is currently doing driving lessons but when he passes I will probably offer him 50% of work done if he drives my van and 60% if he drives his own and uses his own water and equipment (but still need to think about that tbh!!)

The arrangement works very well, He is a great bloke, easy to get on with and works hard.  Works to a high standard too.  I also dont have to worry about sick pay, holidays or public liability insurance as he is self employed and sorts that himself.  At the end of the week he gives me an invoice for work done.  All very simple....

I would be interested in other peoples opinions on my setup.

[Marc Stock]

I have a guy that helps me whenever I fall behind (which is very often!) He is self employed and helps out 3 other local window cleaners too. He also has a little round himself he does in his own village. 
As we always work in pairs  I pay him 25% of the work we do so in other words we often clear £400 a day so he gets £100 and I get £300.  He is currently doing driving lessons but when he passes I will probably offer him 50% of work done if he drives my van and 60% if he drives his own and uses his own water and equipment (but still need to think about that tbh!!)

The arrangement works very well, He is a great bloke, easy to get on with and works hard.  Works to a high standard too.  I also dont have to worry about sick pay, holidays or public liability insurance as he is self employed and sorts that himself.  At the end of the week he gives me an invoice for work done.  All very simple....

I would be interested in other peoples opinions on my setup.

My opinion is that anyone that has worked for you either on a self employment basis or full employment, the risks to him poaching your work is always there. In fact for someone who is self employed working for you, you have no jurisdiction over them what so ever; especially if they are already in the same area and have customers near yours in thier own business. There is nothing stopping your customer working out that it might be cheaper to go with your subbie, cancel your service and go with him. You won't  be able to do a single thing about it.

You also have to be careful how much you use the same subbie. If it so happens that the self employed window cleaner only has 1 day a week of his own work, and works for you on a sub contract basis  for 3 days a week HMRC are likely to see it as employment anyway and will hit you for employers Nat insurance, and possibly prosecute for not having employers liability insurance in place. The subbie could also face an IR35 investigation which won't be nice for him.

Best thing to do in my opinion is seek proper employment legal advice as each case will be different.

I'm going down employment route.

[Simon Trapani]

I think you'll find he wouldn't have to pay employer's national insuarance  if employed as the allowance is now £3000

You'd have to check or have a look on the HMRC website.

[Solar Steve]

I pay a fixed amount to Peninsula monthly, which covers all legal advice and documentation for my 3 businesses, all of which employ. So my amount will be greatly different to yours. However, because I signed up for a 5 year period, my fee will not increase, regardless of how my companies grow and how many employees I take on. If I sign for a further 5 years, my fee stays the same. It proved to be quite expensive for one employee, but now I have grown on all fronts, it is cheap as chips and will continue to get relatively cheaper the more I grow. I'd recommend you contact them as they put on free seminars which are obvious events to drum up business. It's an excellent way to see if they are for you though. For me, they have been 5* all the way.

I'd say that Susan Dean's builder friend perhaps cocked up very early on and is not comparable to your situation. My lads certainly don't have their own legal team, so I doubt they'd challenge me about things. They have their copy of an employee handbook given them on arrival. It's over 40 pages long and covers everything. There is no ambiguity. I also keep a copy in the van so they have it for their reference whilst they are out and about and something crops up. We all know exactly where we stand with each other and what we are all legally entitied to. There is very little fuss.

[Solar Steve]

I have a guy that helps me whenever I fall behind (which is very often!) He is self employed and helps out 3 other local window cleaners too. He also has a little round himself he does in his own village. 
As we always work in pairs  I pay him 25% of the work we do so in other words we often clear £400 a day so he gets £100 and I get £300.  He is currently doing driving lessons but when he passes I will probably offer him 50% of work done if he drives my van and 60% if he drives his own and uses his own water and equipment (but still need to think about that tbh!!)

The arrangement works very well, He is a great bloke, easy to get on with and works hard.  Works to a high standard too.  I also dont have to worry about sick pay, holidays or public liability insurance as he is self employed and sorts that himself.  At the end of the week he gives me an invoice for work done.  All very simple....

I would be interested in other peoples opinions on my setup.

I'd check out guidelines here: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/employed-or-self-employed
This website is far more reliable than a forum!

It sounds like your man can continue working with you in a self-employed basis. Make sure you rotate his days, have him use his own equipment on your work, even if this is just a pole and allow him to work with other people instead of you if he so wishes. Then he is definitely self-employed. Even if he does half a day a week, every Monday afternoon where you provide the work, his working materials, his pay and he cannot change the Monday afternoon, then you are employing him part time in the eyes of HMRC.

Let's be very clear, employment costs you a lot more financially and in grief than having self employed help. However, it can give you a lifestyle with more freedom. For me, I'd take the freedom over the additional profit any day.

[Solar Steve]

Just another one to open up which no one has mentioned............PENSIONS.
I am still learning about this, so can't yet offer an opinion.

[OutlaneWC]

Can I have some more info please tony

My email john@outlanewindowcleaning.co.uk

Cheers