[dai]

The new WAHL legislation has been with us over a year now, and being so vitally important to the work we do, we do our best to understand it. The question is, are we really any the wiser?
I wish to conduct a pole in order to determine how much each of us understands the new regulations. If, as I suspect very few if any of us do, then maybe it’s time to put some pressure on our political representatives for complete clarification.
Questions that I don’t know the answers to pop up frequently, for example.
Rosskiva recently announced that he was giving up WFP for many of his domestic clients.
Is Ross now working illegally? After all he has a safer method of working but has decided not to use it.
Or is he working legally because he has tried WFP, but finds it impractical for his domestic work.
If each of us has to determine what is, and isn’t, a practical safer alternative, then it is down to our own judgment. How are we to know if that judgment coincides with that of a heath and safety officer? Who may, or may not decide to prosecute us.
This legislation has yet to be fully tested in the courts. My submission is that until it is, and judgments have been made, we work on in ignorance. Dai

[windows_chepstow]

Yes, I understand them.  They say - quite clearly - the following:

1.   The guiding principle is to avoid work at height.

2.   Ladders are to be used as a last resort.

3.   When using ladders, a ladding stabilisation device needs to be used and the ladder tied off.

4.   A risk assessment should be done justifying any use of ladders.

HOWEVER:

There is more that meets the eye.  I haven't the time to go posting links right now, but have a look at the Federation of Window Cleaner's newsletter; google for it; and you'll see their uptake on it. 

They basically say that HSE recognise that window cleaners can't change their methods overnight and that a transitional period is allowed untill 2007; and they're still waiting clarification from HSE.  Although if you can read, the rules are clear enough.

Also have a look at the HSE's website.  They've a dedicated Working at Height Area and you'll not find ANY specific information on window cleaning.  Probably because it's a difficult area to legislate.

I've been meaning to put a post up about it; links, bells and everything; but haven't got round to it.

I think unless you, or more likely one of your staff has an accident, you've nothing to worry about, no-one is enforcing the rules; yet.

I'm not sure what the insurance companies uptake is on it mind.  I can see them digging their heels paying out for an accident that could've been avoided if you avoided working at height.

But give it another 12 or 18 months and it might be a different story.

Anyway, I still use ladders when I see fit; I'm not being holier than thou; I've just taken the time to read the rules and related documents.

[chris@c.m.s]

Dai To my understanding if Ross cleans windows traditional  that are suitable to be cleaned with Wfp with no excuse for not doing so, ie drips on flats below then he is acting outside of the regulations especially as he has the equiptment for it. However wfp is taking me some time to get used to and I'm not introducing it to all my customers at once so I guess I'll be working outside the regs tomorrow, Things do need clarifying and hopefully next year we will all know what the score is, I can see ladder use being banned for most properties though.     

[geoffreyspecht]

the guy cleaning the windows for the council in llandudno .still uses ladders so they must be legal. di

[windows_chepstow]

the guy cleaning the windows for the council in llandudno .still uses ladders so they must be legal. di

That's it sorted then!

[KJG]

When folded over, my copy of the WAHL regs made an excellent ladder footing for No 57's sloping backgarden.

[Ian_Giles]

Not that I think it is right, but there will come a point when those that make the rules we have to obey will realise that for the most part there is an alternative to ladders, at least as far as window cleaning is concerned.
And of course the cost is not prohibitive either.

If there is a safe alternative it should be used...its not rocket science is it?

And of course, how many window cleaners do you observe NOT following correct ladder procedure?
Most of us do not do so, a folded bit of cardboard or paper for a wedge when working on a slope, no anti slip devices on ladders, some may use ladder mitts...but not many.
Sadly that won't change, but ladders aren't lethal to work off are they?
I have worked off them since I was 17 years old, and I'm 50 now, i've used paper wedges, I've never used a ladder mitt, and its only since I joined the forum that I even heard of a 'Rojak Ladder stopper!

work beckons, that'll have to do...

Ian

[Sir Squeaky]

When folded over, my copy of the WAHL regs made an excellent ladder footing for No 57's sloping backgarden.

Good call!

That's what all I'd use them for.

[baldeagle]

I had a telephone conversation a couple of days ago with a lady at the HSE in Newcastle, [the one in Staffordshire].

It was about a "Height Awareness" course. It seems they've already done some and they are popular, so more are planned.

We were chatting generally, and I mentioned that I have been using ladders regularly over a period of 45 years, with no problems, I also mentioned the fact that I was aware of the "New Regs" and that I have a couple of stand-offs and a "Rojak".

She replied, "You sound well experienced, you seem to have everything sorted out, it sounds good"

Then when I said I was a self employed window cleaner, she said, "The WAHD isn't going to apply to window cleaners, are you sure you still want this course?" !!!!!!!!!!!!

What do you make of that?

WFP 'er's need not reply - this is for us trad men!

Baldeagle in Staffordshire.

[poleman]

Hi chaps, the simple answer is …because of the new WAHR there has been a lot misunderstanding within the window cleaning industry, so I have been told, this summer there will be new guideline in the use of ladders, if you comply to these guideline for OUR industry, you will be complying to the WAHR.

Andy        

[Moderator David@stives]

Baldeagle

The WAHD definately does apply to window cleaners.

Window cleaners work at height so come under the directive.

Whoever told you that is wrong, The course was probably not aimed at window cleaners, so that is why she asked if you still wanted to attend.

Dave

[LSB]

although i have a basic wfp set up for a couple of contracts , im a trad w/c and wouldnt and couldnt use wfp for most of my round , and therefore dont ! talking to a contracts manager for a large quote at retirement flats he said that i could use ladders for some of it as long as i was only on the ladder for approx 3mins per window , that was some of his understanding of the regulations   

[macc]

I had a telephone conversation a couple of days ago with a lady at the HSE in Newcastle, [the one in Staffordshire].



WFP 'er's need not reply - this is for us trad men!

Baldeagle in Staffordshire.

OK, fine.  . 

Macc

[Alex Gardiner]

Who Cares about the WAHR???

I do not and never have done!!!

I only care about my personal safety, which why I have been using WFP for 5 years now, long before WAHR have been bandied about as a reason to use WFP.

Ladders are unsafe by nature, and you will always get a high percentage of accidents off of them, just this week a local WC was knocked off his 2nd storey ladders by a car who wouldn't wait for him to get down and tried to 'squeeze' through because he was in a hurry to get to the beach!!!!! Fortunately the WC was able to habg from the window sill until someone put his ladders back up.

What was the window cleaner doing up a ladder on a road near cars. Did he want to die? and yet a lot of us used to do this.

Unfortunately there are a lot of window cleaners who are not blessed with a common sense of self-preservation so until all window cleaners (and builders, painters, etc.) are granted with this the HSE will have to continue to try and force it on people.

I rarely quote the WAHR as a reason for my choice I just tell my clients that Ladders are just to dangerous (although i managed 16 years working off of them with no accidents)

Alex Gardiner

[abacus]

Hi Dia
I would say that do understand the regs however looking and listning to wc around I think there is a lot of confusion because of mixed signals in the industry not least of all by the health and safety exec I once asked them about the 9 mt rule and where the messure to my platform ie the rung Im stang on my hand hieght  or ladder hieght she just kept reading the rule no explanation. The reg are so worded that if you have a deffinant slant on it you could read it couple of ways
the other day I saw a window cleaner quite a young chap (I'm 48 so most people ecept for ian giles are young to me) put the top section of a tripple ladder up to open roof over the entrance to a block of flats then place the other two sections of the ladder on top of that up a further two floors. He said it safe he even had a rojack in the van the angle was incorrect and would have been correct if he had used the triple from the ground.

He said they sell ladders bigger than mine so they must be legal to use.

Ill stick to a pole system myself safer by far

regards grant

[dai]

Well, up to now it appears 1 in 3 of us is unsure about the new regs.
That 1 in 3 is of course are members of this forum. What about the majority of wc's that do not read the forum, and as such have little access to information.
I, like everyone else can read the the relevant information on the H.S.E website.
It seems to me that there are too many areas that need clarification.
Phrases like "should be considered" OK you consider it, then what? You are required to make a judgement. who's to say that judgement would be the same as that of person enforcing the regs?
And what is an excessively long unsecured ladder? How long does a ladder have to be before it's classed as excessively long?
Current industry best practice is that 9m is the maximum length a window cleaner should use. Why the word "should"? If they used the word "must", then we would know for certain.
In window cleaning all ladders longer than 6 m must be secured.
Well that's clear enough, the use of the word must is plain and we know where we stand, If they used it more often, instead of the word should, there would be less confusion.
The regs say that roofs should only be used for access if there is no other reasonably practicable way of safely reaching the window. Again we have to make the judgment as to what's reasonably practicable. Would the man from HSE see it the same way as you?
Commercial premises, by law, must in all cases provide safe access for window cleaners and these must be used, domestic occupiers have no such duty under criminal law.
Well, we know where we stand on that one too. The use of the word must leaves no room for doubt or confusion.
We can all read the rules, but do we know how they will be interpreted by different bodies/
The examples I have referred to above come from HSE Information sheet MISC613. Dai