[Spruce]

May have a solution to this for those that are interested

Spoke to an auto electrician; If you have a single van battery, apparently there is a port already in built for a second battery feed (its incase people do camper conversions)

Apparently its a case of fitting a relay off this port and then wiring in to the secondary battery (leisure battery) etc...ensuring that the feed only kicks in whilst the van is on...

I'm going to see the chap next week, £90 to supply correct relay and fit ( seat need to come out i think, reckons it'll take him an hour and a half...)

Will keep you updated and let you know if it works

Sounds interesting. 

What I would be thinking is about the higher voltages these new alternators peak that.  So I would be concerned about the type of auxillary battery you could use.

The ordinary lead acid starter battery on the van has been replaced by a calcium battery which will take those high voltages. The advantage with the battery to battery charger (the Sterling one - not sure about the Grippa supplied one) is that the installer programs the unit to suit the battery type its charging.

However, Ford did have to consider a facility to accommodate motor home users or they would loose a revenue stream., The other  point is that Ford are very strong in the Transit tipper market. They use a second dedicated battery to drive the hydraulic ram pump on the tipper. So they must have the facility to charge a second battery.

When a chassis cab is manufactured its final body configuration is usually determined by the purchaser. Most of the body configurations are done by outside suppliers and fitters. Some will need an additional power source, ie tippers, and others won't, ie flat bed.

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[Don Kee]

No luck

Apparently the wiring has been changed, cant do it on the newer customs as the secondary port is no longer there (we think its so you have to go to Ford for a split charger  )

You can do it onthe older ones though. The auto electrician has a 2014 which he has done it to, showed me the port and how they'd changed it on mine)

We've ordered some bits (on the advice of another auto electrician) that means we might be able to wire into the CAM, if this doesn't work though then it might be a no goer as above (I'm not paying £300 plus for a Split charger, I'd rather bench it every other night)

Should have the bits next week so will keep you updated

[Perfect Windows]

Sounds interesting. 

...

When a chassis cab is manufactured its final body configuration is usually determined by the purchaser. Most of the body configurations are done by outside suppliers and fitters. Some will need an additional power source, ie tippers, and others won't, ie flat bed.

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Just skimmed this thread but it makes me think of an answer posted a while ago by you:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=194738.msg1692039#msg1692039

Is that a possible solution?

Vin

[Spruce]

Sounds interesting. 

...

When a chassis cab is manufactured its final body configuration is usually determined by the purchaser. Most of the body configurations are done by outside suppliers and fitters. Some will need an additional power source, ie tippers, and others won't, ie flat bed.

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Just skimmed this thread but it makes me think of an answer posted a while ago by you:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=194738.msg1692039#msg1692039

Is that a possible solution?

Vin

Hi Vin,

Not any more. Euro 6 emission standards have caused manufacturers to take another step forward and have raised the bar. From September 2105 all new vehicles sold must be Euro 6 compliant. So they have introduced smart regenerative braking which is the problem for charging aux leisure batteries.

The idea is that the battery is only charged on deceleration. This means the charge is 'free' as it isn't using engine energy or fuel to charge it.
 The only time your alternator is triggered to charge the battery in driving conditions is when the battery drops to under 80% charged. Once the battery is charged to 80% the vehicle relies on regenerative braking to charge the remaining 20%.

To charge the batteries faster during braking, the new alternators push out a higher voltage, up to 15v. Normal lead acid batteries don't like this high voltage so calcium batteries are used. This is an issue with our leisure batteries.

A battery to battery charger draws current from the main van's battery to charge the leisure battery.  So when the van's battery gets to 80% the van's alternator kicks in to charge the van's battery. The B 2 B charger also reduces the high charging voltages to what the leisure battery is comfortable with.

But this technology isn't cheap.

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[toby richards]

When the van's engine is idling, put a multimeter across the starter battery and see if the starter battery is charging.

Ford state that the Custom has "Other technologies, such as Smart Regenerative Charging, also help make the all-new Transit’s powerful new engines even more fuel-efficient."

If your van has Smart Regenerative Charging then this is the issue. The ECU will only signal the alternator to start charging the van's starter battery when it drops to 80% charged. Ford have left the other 20% of battery charge to be replenished when decelerating.

I understand that the way to overcome this is to fit a smart battery to battery charger. Sterling products have led the field in this technology but these units aren't cheap.

The battery to battery charger senses when your leisure battery needs charging and draws the current required from the starter battery to do this. Once the starter battery gets down to 80% then the vans alternator takes over.

https://www.grippatank.co.uk/full-kit-12v-30amp-smart-battery-to-battery-charger


http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/sterling-pro-batt-ultra-battery-to-battery-charger-12v12v-30a.html

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hi really interested in this thread I have a new transit custom and from the thread it seems that the motor manufacturers only have the regenerative braking on their eco models.As for the higher voltage to charge the battery if you have a normal set u, as in vsr,when it kicks in you will see a voltage of possibly 14 volts anyway so the batteries can take it.I can definitely see the problem if all new vans are charging the batteries from the alternator only when battery drops below  80 per cent

[Perfect Windows]

Hi Vin,

Not any more. Euro 6 emission standards have caused manufacturers to take another step forward and have raised the bar. From September 2105 all new vehicles sold must be Euro 6 compliant. So they have introduced smart regenerative braking which is the problem for charging aux leisure batteries.

...

But this technology isn't cheap.

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Ah, thank you.  Very clear, thanks.

Vin

[8weekly]

No luck

Apparently the wiring has been changed, cant do it on the newer customs as the secondary port is no longer there (we think its so you have to go to Ford for a split charger  )

You can do it onthe older ones though. The auto electrician has a 2014 which he has done it to, showed me the port and how they'd changed it on mine)

We've ordered some bits (on the advice of another auto electrician) that means we might be able to wire into the CAM, if this doesn't work though then it might be a no goer as above (I'm not paying £300 plus for a Split charger, I'd rather bench it every other night)

Should have the bits next week so will keep you updated

That's a shame. As you say though, unless there's a burning need it's not worth the cost.

[Spruce]

No luck

Apparently the wiring has been changed, cant do it on the newer customs as the secondary port is no longer there (we think its so you have to go to Ford for a split charger  )

You can do it onthe older ones though. The auto electrician has a 2014 which he has done it to, showed me the port and how they'd changed it on mine)

We've ordered some bits (on the advice of another auto electrician) that means we might be able to wire into the CAM, if this doesn't work though then it might be a no goer as above (I'm not paying £300 plus for a Split charger, I'd rather bench it every other night)

Should have the bits next week so will keep you updated

That's a shame. As you say though, unless there's a burning need it's not worth the cost.

This is probably the most sensible view atm for anyone buying a van for window cleaning.

 Hopefully the price of these battery to battery chargers will reduce as the demand for them increases.

Here's a pretty good explanation of the current situation Vin.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0658/7343/files/page17_RegenBraking_d43ed42d-5d14-4b7e-b60a-04a76af7e5ff.pdf?5600843396576371320

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[Spruce]

I have been thinking about this over this weekend.

What happens if you go a heavy duty relay from the van's battery triggered by the ignition to a 12v inverter and then plugged in a 230v intelligent leisure battery charger to charge the aux leisure battery?

The ignition triggered relay would only operate the inverter when the ignition was on and in 99.9% of cases when the engine was running.

[8weekly]

I have been thinking about this over this weekend.

What happens if you go a heavy duty relay from the van's battery triggered by the ignition to a 12v inverter and then plugged in a 230v intelligent leisure battery charger to charge the aux leisure battery?

The ignition triggered relay would only operate the inverter when the ignition was on and in 99.9% of cases when the engine was running.

Why would the intelligent charge system operate differently to an inverter than to a leisure battery? Is that a stupid question?

[Spruce]

I have been thinking about this over this weekend.

What happens if you go a heavy duty relay from the van's battery triggered by the ignition to a 12v inverter and then plugged in a 230v intelligent leisure battery charger to charge the aux leisure battery?

The ignition triggered relay would only operate the inverter when the ignition was on and in 99.9% of cases when the engine was running.

Why would the intelligent charge system operate differently to an inverter than to a leisure battery? Is that a stupid question?

Not sure I totally understand your question @8weekly so please forgive me.

 An inverter would raise the 12v van battery voltage to 230v and then the leisure battery charger would then use that current to charge the leisure battery.

An intelligent battery charger is supposed to charge a leisure battery more fully than a standard car battery charger, although a standard battery charger would work as well.

The inverter will draw current from the starter battery when its on so wouldn't rely on the regenerative charging cycle of new vehicles. Hence the reason for an ignition controlled relay to trigger the inverter.

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