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Re: using enzymes
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2005, 06:03:19 pm »
Hi Chris

All the time you know what they say about information

Best regards Nick

Re: using enzymes
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2005, 06:06:47 pm »
Yes.........it makes your hair fall out.
Point proven.............now you read as much as me  ;)

Mark Roberts

  • Posts: 390
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2005, 07:08:19 pm »
I think there is a lot confusion going on. Some enzymes will do you harm, others wont. Ed talks about synthetic enzymes in cleaning detergents, this raises concern about the danger of employing chemical agents in detergents which may be absorbed by the skin and eventually into the blood stream where these catalysts could continue to randomly degrade protein matter and even interfere with DNA reproductive processes.  Shoot me down if Im wrong, but Nick's Allerg stop works in in totally different way, it does not work by cleavage reaction that detergent enzymes promote in order to increase cleaning efficiency but uses the key-lock principle.
If Nick says its ok then thats good enough for me, others will have to make up their own minds.

Cheers
Mark

Dynafoam

Re: using enzymes
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2005, 07:23:10 pm »
Blast - I was going to say that, Nick  :(   ( ;D)

I think that the salient point here is that there are many enzymes in nature and an increasing number of synthetic ones. Without some, life as we know it (JIM) could not exist.

However the enzyme groups that sparked this discussion are primarily designed either by nature or by man to break down protein groups similar to those of which much of our body - especially our lungs - are constructed.

Hence enzymes that are applied to a greasy restaurant carpet, if allowed to become airborne either as aerosol droplets or residue dust may attack the human lung. The response of the bodies immune system may cause an attack of an auto-immune problem such as asthma.

Other enzymes, which do not act upon the relevant proteins will have no known effect.

To label all proteins as bad is as much a nonsense as labelling all bacteria as villains. Or all drugs, for that matter.

With products such as Prochem Enzyme Prespray (now withdrawn) I fully support Dougs position. With others, such as Auxillase, which has been tested in the same manner as a prescription drug, specifically to check for detrimental effects on the human body, that is a different matter entirely.


Dynafoam

Re: using enzymes
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2005, 07:27:37 pm »
Mark,

A good point.

The key-lock principal is an additional safety mechanism which effectively 'defuses' (locks) enzymes that have found thier target (key).

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2005, 09:00:11 pm »
Hi Guys,

We talk a lot about training on these boards , 2 day NCCA courses and all that and I am probably more chemically trained than most.(took a lot more than 2 days ;))

My reference to Plutonium was purely on the basis , that many salesmen claim that just because something occurs naturally that it is safe , it patently isn't.Tobacco, cyanide,carbon monoxide,etc

My comments were based on two conversations I had with a research chemist at Novo Nordisk ,a major enzyme supplier.

We can all lift stuff off the internet to make cases , I have no axe to grind just a belief from my days as a chemist that all chemicals have to be treated with respect.

Ironically I have often seen 'microsplitters ' referred to as the safe alternative to enzymes.

Cheers,

Doug


Re: using enzymes
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2005, 07:56:44 am »
Doug,
What made you leave the world of Chemistry.......... must be a damm site easier work than this.
And you get to wear a nice white coat  ;D

ps............. your little picture is not some sort of bizarre Jeckyll & Hyde type experiment is it ?

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2005, 08:04:24 am »
Chris,

Money and the gradual demise of manufacturing industry. :(

Thats me enjoying the ambience of Brugges , recommend to anyone.

Never been much of an alchemist though I'm getting better at turning CC into money , mainly thnks to these boards :D

Cheers,

Doug

Re: using enzymes
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2005, 09:02:48 am »
Doug

This is why AllergSTOP has been so extensively tested, in the Uk for instance it is normal to complete 12 patch tests for direct contact with the human skin, at normal concentration levels

AllergSTOP  was tested 30 patches at 5 times the normal concentration level over a 72 hour period, it did not produce any reactions what so ever.

The internet is a massive provider of information on many things including scientific discoveries and development of chemicals and process' however lifting information is only worth doing if you understand it. Plainly your post did not offer concise answers only an alarmist attitude toward enzymes,

AllergSTOP is probably one of the most advanced if not the most advanced form of allergen treatment available, because it is so new, and because it is one, if not the only product that treat sall four air allergens, all other product treat the symptoms not the cause.

Best regards Nick   

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2005, 04:14:09 pm »
Nick,

If you go back to the begining of this topic you can see that it clearly relates to detergent enzymes and my comments also related to my experiences with those products.

The enzyme chemist I spoke to,  certainly was alarmed and the fact that many of these products have now been discontinued suggests he was right to be so!

As for your new product , not having been on the course I didn't even know  that they were enzymes and as for their Health and Safety cannot comment.

On the subject of understanding chemistry having been an R&D chemist for about 6 years I clearly have a better understanding than most carpet cleaners but again cannot comment on your qualifcations as I don't know them.

Cheers,

Doug

jcbdfa

  • Posts: 58
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2005, 07:45:37 pm »
this post has been really informative to me and i will certainly restrict my use of (most) enzymes in the future. it strikes me that the information on most chemicals we use is pretty general and not really up to intense scrutiny such as we have given enzymes. for instance what enzymes are present in psprays shampoos etc. even what chemicals are present in any products? a cc gave me a bottle of chemspec POG what an evil smelling product. mine went straight in the bin. i remember dropping my watch in a full tank of form 90 putting my hand in to get it and getting a real stinging, burning reaction. and i am not allergic to this product!!!!(yet)
  exercise caution (and wear gloves)
ps my watch was spotless

Mike Roper

  • Posts: 326
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2005, 09:22:36 pm »
Hi all,
What about microbiological cleaners/ stain& odour removers ? These come as concentrate dormant bacteria which when diluted with warm water is ready to use. It is in this active form that they make their own enzymes to break down the stain / odour. Interestingly in their concentrate form they are not  COSSH regulated .  Are these enzymes to be veiwed with caution ?
Mike                       

Dynafoam

Re: using enzymes
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2005, 11:17:58 pm »
Mike,

These products should indeed be treated with caution.

I do use them, exactly as directed, for specific problems and only in very small quanties and at suitable lacations.

I would not, for example use them on a carpet which may have a young baby crawling on it.

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2014, 09:37:57 pm »
Reading this Old post about Enzymes... Has anyone changed their mind/view over the years for any reason?
Are they safe?... ie:- is it safe to breathe in the vapour of the enzymes as you are mixing/preparing them with the water?
The way it sounds is like any ingestion of the enzymes would be very bad for your lungs... or is it only the dry residue that's dangerous?
Also... how long do the enzymes stay active to do their work in the carpet when you apply them?
Is it for example only as long as the water stays warm for & then as the water gets cooler & they become more inactive until when the water is finally cold again then the enzymes become inert?
Please explain as i don't know :)
cheers Jim

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2014, 09:54:48 pm »
Reading this Old post about Enzymes... Has anyone changed their mind/view over the years for any reason?
Are they safe?... ie:- is it safe to breathe in the vapour of the enzymes as you are mixing/preparing them with the water?
The way it sounds is like any ingestion of the enzymes would be very bad for your lungs... or is it only the dry residue that's dangerous?
Also... how long do the enzymes stay active to do their work in the carpet when you apply them?
Is it for example only as long as the water stays warm for & then as the water gets cooler & they become more inactive until when the water is finally cold again then the enzymes become inert?
Please explain as i don't know :)
cheers Jim

Safety wise  ....   read the introductory paragraph chapter2 here  ...
It seems concerns relate to staff handling the ingredient during production  ,  a  process call encapsulation makes them safe by the time they reach the consumer .

http://www.aise.eu/documents/document/20131002145107-aise-enzymes-safe-handling-final-sept2013.pdf

Paul Moss

  • Posts: 2296
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2014, 09:57:18 am »
Wow that post brings back a lot of memories to me and I bet a lot of other guys  :)

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2014, 12:22:11 pm »
Thank you John for that Interesting report which has now been saved in my carpet & upholstery cleaning research folder...
My personal summary/view on using enzymes in our line of work after reading that report is this... The people "Most" at risk from any adverse effects are the manufacturers & employees that come into direct contact with the unecapsulated enzymes at the time of manufacture... & even then the adverse effects are only temporary & mild at that :)
& Tbh i think we come in to more direct contact with enzymes every day just by wearing the clothes we wash with detergents in our laundry... & we come in to much more direct contact with those than we do for example walking on a carpet :)
Also i couldn't help thinking/wondering... we use enzymes as pre-sprays & spotters to break down protein based soilage etc etc & then we extract them out of the carpets with our machines... so if we extract them out of the carpets with our tank detergent solutions, how would/could they have been perceived as a possible health risk to customers in the first place?
The only way i can think of there being even a slight risk would be if they were applied to a carpet & then not extracted?
& even then according to that report the adverse effects are only temporary & no worse than dust mite allergies...
I am open minded & accept constructive criticism so if i am wrong in my way of thinking please tell me :)

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2014, 04:42:20 pm »
Hello again... I am interested to know for the purposes of my research into this topic of enzymes & their use
If anyone knows the answer to my question about "How long do enzymes stay active in the carpet"...
The reason i ask this is for the purpose of removing cat urine on a rug...
I recently cleaned a rug that was contaminated with Tom cat urine... it had peed a few times on the rug & it "Reeked"!!!
it had soaked through to the back & the area was damp with the pee... i took it from the customers house & brought it back to my place (Dumb, as my place now stunk of cat pee) lol
Anyway i laid out a tarpaulin/waterproof ground sheet & placed the rug on to that ready for cleaning whilst the Ninja warmed up... then i mixed up 3-4ltr of Craftex Pre-enzyme solution & applied every single drop of it to the front & the back..
I agitated it with the Sebo Duo & left it to dwell for 20 mins & then thoroughly HWE it (front & back) with some Ashbys Supreme powder plus... & some Extra Fresh... (im trying to use those up..lol)
Then i mixed up some Chemspec Kill Odour Plus again about 4ltr & Saturated the front & back again & re-agitated that in with the (newly cleaned) sebo... & then i left that for 20 mins also before i hwe'd again...
Then lots of Dry Passes before a light misting with Prochem Fibre & Fabric Rinse... Then i racked the rug in the lounge & set up a small fan for constant air movement...
It still smelled of cat wee in the localised area but all the rest of the rug smelled nice...
I cleaned it for a mate who had already deemed the rug "Tip Worthy" but wanted me to try just to see...
So... Did i not leave the enzymes on long enough? & how long do enzymes stay active for in a carpet once applied?
Please Help me by answering as i am just trying to be the best carpet cleaner i can be... & is the reason i ask technical questions & require in-depth answers... Imagine, its like i'm filling in all the gaps of information they don't elaborate on in the Prochem, Chemspec & Ashbys courses ive been to...
cheers jim

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2014, 08:19:56 am »
I belief the enzymes are active while they are in a wet state and are held at an optimum temperature, although they will work to some degree with cold water they work at their best when a higher temp is maintained. Too high a temp with 'kill' them although I put kill in inverted commas as the cannot actually die as they are not like some believe a living organism or bacteria which digests the dirt, they are a catalyst.

I have heard of carpet cleaners extending their process by laying plastic over a treated stain to prolong the drying drying time,so the enzymes have longer to work. I have also heard that laying an electric blanket over a treated areas to have the same effect but this also has the added benefit that the temp is kept high.

Sometimes enzymes don't work because they are not the correct type for the job. their are broad spectrum enzymes that work on multiple situations but also their are some that are aimed at specific jobs eg: urine contamination, heavy organic soil, cesspit cleaning, odour control etc.
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

James Jacob

  • Posts: 148
Re: using enzymes
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2014, 01:31:04 pm »
Thank you Mike I appreciate your answer as i know from reading other posts that you have a vast wealth of knowledge & experience (along with others) in the industry :)
I have been studying the posts on particular key-word searches here in the forum & tbh i find our chosen profession absolutely fascinating... especially when the science is explained...
There is soooo much more to carpet & upholstery cleaning than just owning an extraction machine & good products/solutions
It really helps when you can understand exactly what a product is doing on a molecular level & the effects of different products on different fibre types etc etc

Would you or anyone know which type or particular brand name enzyme is the absolute best for severe urine contamination?
Atm i have "Craftex Pre-enzyme Solution"... & if this is not the "Best" one for urine, which application would this particular
enzyme be best suited for?