[Simon Gerrard]

I wonder how many times Prochem has been sued from the detrimental effects of Powerburst by its customer's having damaged millions of carpets
Indeed if it and other similar high alkaline products are so harmful, why are they available in the first place?
I thinks there is some scaremainering going on here

Simon

[john martin]

Its not just carpets and upholstery we are talking about here, but the bottom line is high alkaline based cleaning chemicals will cause detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use, its a well known fact within the cleaning industry and many people will prefer not to accept this fact, the point being with todays latest advances in cleaning science there are many safer alternatives available from many suppliers, again its up to each person to decide on which cleaning chemical they choose, but there is no harm in letting newer guys coming into our industry know that there are safer products available other than the high alkaline based ones which are often promoted as safe.

What level of PH value do you call high Tadgh  ,   I've  mostly just used formula 90 powder for the last couple of days , PH is about 10 ..  the micelles products iv seen are around that too .
As for whats ' safe '  im  not sure whether you mean potential to damage the material being cleaned of the health of the user  , its all a bit vague .

I do see the benefit of marketing the micelles products to a certain customer but i don't except that all other products are potentially damaging .

[V_Purcell]

I wonder how many times Prochem has been sued from the detrimental effects of Powerburst by its customer's having damaged millions of carpets
Indeed if it and other similar high alkaline products are so harmful, why are they available in the first place?
I thinks there is some scaremainering going on here

Simon

I doubt they have ever been sued, most problems arise to to mis use of products.

[Tadgh O Shea]

Hi John, from my experience over the years i have found products with a ph value of between 5 to 10 on the scale to be regarded as safer to use, this is not all about cleaning with micelles based cleaners, and as i have said i am not a chemist, i am being honest in admitting that from many years of cleaning with high alkaline based cleaning chemicals i saw first hand the damage that i caused to my clients surfaces from continuous use of these harsh type chemicals, this applied to carpets,upholstery,hard floors,safety flooring,stainless steel and aluminum surfaces in kitchens,exterior surfaces of vehicles like paintwork,rubbers,vinyls,plastics,alloy wheels,etc,etc, from having over 30 years experience in the cleaning industry i dont need to have a degree in chemistry to know if a cleaning product is safe or not, as i can tell by smell,touch, or look at the safety data sheet, or if i am looking at a new claimed to be safe cleaning product i will just dilute it as recommended by the manufacturer, spray it up into the air then let it fall back on my face,eyes,and skin, if i find it irritating i know such a product will cause detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use, we get many samples of supposed to be safe to use cleaners but 9 times out of 10 they are alkaline based cleaners dressed up to be different, again there was a time for many years when i was newer to the industry that i took on faith what the larger companies and their reps were telling us about their wonderful safe cleaning products, but as you know you cant beat experience to learn the truth. So if i can play a small part in helping some of the newer guys coming into our industry, on making an informed decision to see if their choice of cleaning chemicals are safe to use, check the ph value on the safety data sheet, and ask your supplier for advice on the different cleaning technologies that are available on the market today, there are many suppliers in the UK promoting safe to use cleaning technologies.

[john martin]

Hi John, from my experience over the years i have found products with a ph value of between 5 to 10 on the scale to be regarded as safer to use, this is not all about cleaning with micelles based cleaners, and as i have said i am not a chemist, i am being honest in admitting that from many years of cleaning with high alkaline based cleaning chemicals i saw first hand the damage that i caused to my clients surfaces from continuous use of these harsh type chemicals, this applied to carpets,upholstery,hard floors,safety flooring,stainless steel and aluminum surfaces in kitchens,exterior surfaces of vehicles like paintwork,rubbers,vinyls,plastics,alloy wheels,etc,etc, from having over 30 years experience in the cleaning industry i dont need to have a degree in chemistry to know if a cleaning product is safe or not, as i can tell by smell,touch, or look at the safety data sheet, or if i am looking at a new claimed to be safe cleaning product i will just dilute it as recommended by the manufacturer, spray it up into the air then let it fall back on my face,eyes,and skin, if i find it irritating i know such a product will cause detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use, we get many samples of supposed to be safe to use cleaners but 9 times out of 10 they are alkaline based cleaners dressed up to be different, again there was a time for many years when i was newer to the industry that i took on faith what the larger companies and their reps were telling us about their wonderful safe cleaning products, but as you know you cant beat experience to learn the truth. So if i can play a small part in helping some of the newer guys coming into our industry, on making an informed decision to see if their choice of cleaning chemicals are safe to use, check the ph value on the safety data sheet, and ask your supplier for advice on the different cleaning technologies that are available on the market today, there are many suppliers in the UK promoting safe to use cleaning technologies.

Is there really a lot of new new technology or is there just more eco marketed products ? What else is there new for carpet and upholstery cleaning apart form the micelles products and even that contains terms like nano technology which from what iv read is a marketing misnomer .
Perhaps you mean the ' microsplitter ' products ?  ... they contain constituents used in regular detergents ... just less of them .
I think that ..   'spray the product into your eyes' method you use is unscientific and really tells you nothing about the safety of the product  , just because something contains an an irritant does not make it dangerous ... especially if you use it in a way it was intended by the manufacturer .

[Tadgh O Shea]

kHi John, do you mind if i ask you, lets take for example a guy who goes into a car wash every week to have his car cleaned, the two front wheels are covered in brake dust, the attendant will pre spray the alloys with a high alkaline based alloy wheel cleaner an excellent product to remove the brake dust, then he will wash the rest of the car with a high alkaline based Traffic film remover, whats going to happen John from this continuous use of high alkaline based chemical cleaners, His alloys will eventually become etched and have detrimental damage to their surface from continuous use of these high alkaline based alloy wheel cleaners, his paintwork will be damaged and dulled from the continuous use of high alkaline based Traffic film removers, so will his rubbers,vinyls,plastics,chrome strips etc will corrode, and its all because of the corrosive ingredients that are used to produce high alkaline based chemical cleaners, now remember John i used these mentioned high alkaline based chemical cleaners for many years on my clients vehicles, and as i said i saw first hand the damage that these harsh chemicals caused to surfaces, when i asked the reps from the large chemical manufacturers what was causing this detrimental damage they blamed the sun,the snow,the ice,the salt on the roads, everything else but their supposed to be safe and effective chemical cleaners, As i mentioned earlier i have long found out not to trust these large chemical manufacturers or their reps, thankfully i do not have these problems to contend with today, as again there are many safer alternative available on the market today.

[john martin]

kHi John, do you mind if i ask you, lets take for example a guy who goes into a car wash every week to have his car cleaned, the two front wheels are covered in brake dust, the attendant will pre spray the alloys with a high alkaline based alloy wheel cleaner an excellent product to remove the brake dust, then he will wash the rest of the car with a high alkaline based Traffic film remover, whats going to happen John from this continuous use of high alkaline based chemical cleaners, His alloys will eventually become etched and have detrimental damage to their surface from continuous use of these high alkaline based alloy wheel cleaners, his paintwork will be damaged and dulled from the continuous use of high alkaline based Traffic film removers, so will his rubbers,vinyls,plastics,chrome strips etc will corrode, and its all because of the corrosive ingredients that are used to produce high alkaline based chemical cleaners, now remember John i used these mentioned high alkaline based chemical cleaners for many years on my clients vehicles, and as i said i saw first hand the damage that these harsh chemicals caused to surfaces, when i asked the reps from the large chemical manufacturers what was causing this detrimental damage they blamed the sun,the snow,the ice,the salt on the roads, everything else but their supposed to be safe and effective chemical cleaners, As i mentioned earlier i have long found out not to trust these large chemical manufacturers or their reps, thankfully i do not have these problems to contend with today, as again there are many safer alternative available on the market today.

Tadgh  your argument is all over the place      this is the carpet & upholstery section  , car wheels and car paintwork are of no relevance .

You are repeating a general mantra without dealing with the specifics .

[Tadgh O Shea]

If you want the specifics John, High alkaline based chemical cleaners will cause detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use, i cant be anymore specific than that. if i did not have proof enough after more than 30 years working in the industry, i would not waste my time making the argument.

[Carpet Dawg]

you'll clean your car once a month or more. A lounge carpet will rarely get cleaned more than twice a year.

Carpets wear with age (and lack of vacuuming) anyway, so it would be impossible to determine weather a carpet has been damaged through continues cleaning over a 5 year period for example.

[John Kelly]

Most products in use in the industry aren't high PH. The bio based products you Tadgh, myself and others sell even have their detractors. There are some worries over "nano technology products" as not a lot of research has gone into them.
The "caustic" products you mention are only really a very small part of the cleaning industry now.