[isa]

We have approached by a small local private school to first quote and then overtake the cleaning from their current contractors.
The current contractor is adamant that we must under the Tupe regulations
employ  their two cleaning operatives, once we start the cleaning contract
with the school, since that is there only job and they had been taken on just for this job.
Can you please help and explain is this correct?
I am finding it ridiculous as the school looked for new contractors due to the fact that the cleaning standard was unsatisfactory.
What to do?
Your views on this much appreciated.
Thank you.

[Nicholas Head]

Hi

It seems that TUPE could apply in this case, however unfair it may seem to be.  TUPE is quite complex and please get the appropriate legal advice if you want to challenge what the current contractor is claiming.

Naturally feel free to email me direct if you need any further help

Good Luck

Nick

[pristineclean]

It's been my experience that unsatisfactory cleaning is the product of either bad management, poor supervision or both. Like most other companies, I've taken on a significant number of staff following contract awards which has been lost to poor performance and the change in management approach can yield dividends where the current cleaner has not been properly trained or supported.

What prompted me to respond to your post is your seeming surprise that these regulations exist and I'd echo the advice given to you already - you should make yourself fully aware of your obligations and of the penalties which exist if you don't meet them.

I can't share your view that this is 'ridiculous', to be honest; TUPE regs apply to everyone and I've always been more pleased than not to know that if I lose a contract, the new company will not be able to dismiss a hard working former employee in favour of someone who'll do the work for less pay. I expect my employees to be loyal to the company and I think it would be shabby to look for that quality without giving it in return.

[isa]

In the answer to your post pristinclean, presenting yourself and sounding so honorable and coming from the point that I do not regard or reward hard working staff, which I find offensive by the way.
 We are cleaning mainly domestic  and very small offices. I am aware of the Tupe and vaguely understand the issues,
also know from first hand how it works, as my husband's workplace was taken over by a Tupe, and frankly, most of the hard working people there were driven away from it by the new employer, on purpose.
Coming back on the topic: as I said we deal mainly with domestic cleans, and had been asked by the school to clean it due to the poor quality of the current cleaning.
Around two years ago they have asked us to provide the quote for the clean , and we did not get the job, as our quote was too high,
so this is the answer to your 'in favour of someone who'll do the work for less pay'. Now they got back to us, asking for help to bring the school to itits former order  with its cleanliness. The school being very small operated on the basis that the parents were cleaning it before, but since they moved to bigger premises they needed help and took on current contractors over us as well.
I have seen the school before the contract and now, and its filthy!!!
I find it ridiculous, yes, as much as I want to understand that the employees rights must be cover, it will not stop me believing that Tupe
does not work and its just an excuse for many  companies to shove the problem they are unable to solve onto somebody else i.e. training staff, while "taking care of their workforce". In many many instances this is just artificial and untruth.
So forgive me for wanting to find a way around it, I have  my own hard working, well train staff I need to provide with the hours, and are not willing to take two extra frankly speaking lazy blokes on.

[Nicholas Head]

Hi

Firstly I do think that pristineclean meant to be offensive as they seem to be suggesting that whilst there is very limited "work arounds" (if any) regarding TUPE obligations there are ways to approve the cleanliness of the school and manage poor staff performance.

Whilst I totally understand your frustration, the TUPE regs are complex and challenging is a potential minefield however managing your future client expectations, improving cleaning quality and if necessary managing poor staff performance is, by comparison, a lot simpler. It is just about following the right process.

Happy to help further if you want - just email me direct.

Thanks

Nick

[cml]

Our experience has proven that unmonitored staff yeilds poor performance even if they are highly trained.  Motivation also plays a big part.  However, I do agree that some staff where permitted will cut corners it just a fact but I am also a believer that bad staff can come good.

Whilst I tread carefully not to offend, you could turn this negative situation into a very positive one.

You could used this opportunity to demonstrate your companies excellence in terms of service performance by turning around those 'lazy blokes'.  If they truly value their jobs and want to stay employed they would comply with your way of working. They cannot just be left to get on with it they must be monitored.

 In support of the advice given above Bad Management does often reflect poor management.  Use this opportunity to demonstrate your company excellent which could only serve as a credit to your company's style of management.  You may have to take up this challenge based on TUPE Regs. but it is not the end of the world.  There is no law that forces you to keep employees who are just incapable of performaning a task they were employed to do.  

On the otherhand they could be just as you describe and the company does want to get shot of them.  You would need to carefully obtain as much details about these staff as possible during your contract negotiation stage. i.e personnel records or any former  Disciplinaries held.



  

[isa]

Nicholas thank you for offering additional info and help. How can I contact you directly?
My e-mail info@sparklecleaning.biz

[Nicholas Head]

Hi

My email is nwhead66@gmail.com

Nick

[johnny bravo]

i use double sided tape on my tupe

[spindle]

Once again a "god" shoots down a new poster ...

This a forum for asking questions? 

No wonder people never stay here at CIU with " legends/gods" of the cleaning game shooting from the lip at any unsuspecting newbies.

There are ways and means to shift on any "lazy" staff

Some staff are untrainable as they don't give a **** about the job just the wages at the end of the week..

Good luck! 

[pristineclean]

I'd ask the original poster to carefully look at what I've written and to try to interpret it in accordance with a desire to help rather than anything malicious. When I started out in cleaning, I ran to these boards for help and got it over and over again from people who didn't want anything in return. I think I'm bound to do the same where I can.

My argument about liking TUPE wasn't in relation to the original poster (it can't be in relation to the original poster since I know nothing about that company), it was about 'sharp' industry practices generally. I've taken on people under TUPE whose previous employers had held back final pay, denied holidays and even paid less than national minimum wage and its reasonable to infer from that the existence of companies who will happily exploit people in my former employ but are prevented from doing so by law;  regulations which the original poster views as 'ridiculous' but which I'm in favour of.

If it helps to smooth the waters, I can advise that the view of the original poster is one shared strongly by the Conservative Party  (TUPE regs, ironically, were introduced to UK law during the early Thatcher years and were forced into law because of EU requirements) and that the CBI are currently lobbying to have TUPE protection reduced. I don't agree with them either, naturally  

I can't agree at all with the statement which suggests that the original poster has been shot down - a question was asked and answered - and I'm not sure whether the 'legends/gods' description was directed at me although it's enormously flattering if it was. I've had an inflated opinion of myself for decades now and it's about time someone shared it.
 

[isa]

To All,
I likewise many on CIU have always valued advise and opinions of the members,
even the views, which I am not entirely able to share or support, if only for looking at matters from
different point of view.
Help is always given here willingly and the sense of the cleaning community is strong.
I would like to thank you everyone for taking time and effort to present their point of view.
As your experience has many times help me to broaden mine.
Thank you.
i.