M&M what I'm on about is Facelift taking on the market leader. It seems to me the poles are similar in spec, clamps differ a bit so all in all not a great deal of difference. So the most obvious way of gaining custom is to beat the competition on price. Stephen didn't refer to this in his reply so the conclusion I'm drawing is that Gardiners have got their pricing right on the nail which is another feather in their cap.