[matt]

Wow Tosh - for a moderator thats pretty strong and objectionable language isnt it?


JohnL

No, JohnL,

Not at all.  Just my opinion, which even as a moderator; I'm allowed to have and post. 

If you're short of cash for a WFP system, see Matt's DIY site.

Did you mention the DIY site Tosh, he might not have a link 

http://www.d.co.uk

[Jeff Brimble]

Hi Tosh and everyone why cannot a moderator have an individual point of view, they and we,are not gods. I think you called it as you saw it Tosh. Maybe the Mods need a magic button for when they are "gods"
god its a silly mame 

[JohnL]

thanks Matt,

I do have the link as well as most other links to w/c sites and they all make interesting reading. 

But the constant linkage to wfp-wah- and the hype is really getting boring imho.

Its a bit like a converted smoker, my gxd dont they go on about others who havent given up 

the reasons and arguments for using wfp are wholey valid but they are not sacrosanct and there is no law to outlaw the use of ladders. Final. ( at the present   )

The wah regs do however represent and outline the practices which all users of ladders should employ. ie good working practices. Go against those good working practices and you could be in trouble especially if for instance you are an employer.

I am a self employed Painter & Decorator and the association has taken advice and if you care to look at a previous post of mine there is nothing in wah to warrant stop using ladders as long as you employ good practices. This has just been reiterated by the association, and lets face it I am possibly up a ladder for longer stretches than any of you guys. And if you think you have an argument  re wah try booking me to paper your ceilings and walls and if your argument and your points of interpreting the wah laws stand up you let me know when you have scaffolding positioned wall to wall to conform to the wah regs!    . There is no distinction between interior and exterior work!

To quote the association  ''.  .  .  .  that it is no longer '' legal '' to use ladders and stepladders in particular. This is absolute nonsense  . There is nothing in the Work At Height regulations which specifically prohibits any form of access equipment - ladders and stepladders included.  What is important is to carry out a proper Risk Assessment before each job, use the most suitable equipment, and make sure the equipment is in good condition and used properly  ''  etc etc

To explain to those screaming about me doing w/c and painting - I live on the edge of the Exmoor National Park and on my finishing painting the outside of a property I clean the windows as a matter of course. I have done that for 20 years as being part of my professional service. A great many of these customers cannot get a window cleaner and I have resisted cleaning windows on a regular basis and getting paid for it. I AM NOT TAKING MONEY FROM BONE FIDE W/Cers because these customers cannot get a regular w/c-er because they are to far out in the sticks or just cannot be bothered. I have only 6 customers on w/c so its not a big deal is it? However I may pick up more if the opportunity arises but I will not compete against any w/c-er and thats a fact!

Back to the point - which is, wfp looks and is most probably a great and commendable safety system with the inherent advantage of possibly increasing earnings but please dont push legislation down peoples throats to endorse the purchase and use of a pole system. Any w/cer will probably know the advantages of a pole and get there in their own time - but stop knocking the ladder boys just to push the pole.

Now I wait for the brickbats   

JohnL

[windows_chepstow]

...and there is no law to outlaw the use of ladders. Final. ( at the present   )

JohnL

JohnL,

Ladders can be used; but not as a first choice of access.

So for the majority of routine window cleaning where a WFP would be practical to use; then ladders should not.  Final.

The guiding principle of the Working at Height Directive is that if a task can be done from the ground, and it's practical to do so; then that's how it should be done.  Fact. 

Comparing window cleaning to painting and decorating is like comparing apples to a spade.  It's a metaphor that just won't work.

Also, try reading the Working at Height Directive and the guidance notes that accompany it before attempting to give an informed opinion.

Mind you, I understand the rules and the risks of working at height, but I still used a ladder today on numerous occassions where I could've used my WFP.

So I'm not anti-ladder, or anti-window cleaner who uses a ladder.

Just anti-some-one-who-can't-be-be-bothered-to-read-the-rules-but-makes-an-'informed'-statement-anyway.

Check out the 'sticky' at the top of the main window cleaning page.

Regards,

Tosh

PS.  Some of the 'dodgiest' ladder use I've ever witnessed is by exterior house-painters.

[Sir Squeaky]

In the area I live, I think there's just about more WFP window cleaners than traditional ladder users.

Sorry Tosh, I wasn't going to rise to this, but that is just plain wrong.

In this area I know of you and Ian and some other bloke who use Spotting machines Wfp .

I know of at least 10 or 12 who do it with a squeegee.(and I mean at least)

It's not taking on around here, they don't want the bother, and they've seen the results and heard the feedback from the public.

Sorry, but you and Ian are on your own here.

Rog. (not trying to cause arguements)

[JohnL]

Tosh, sorry my friend but your ''final'' and ''fact'' are both incorrect and both are the result of the way the regs have been used here to further a position.

and  . . . . '' Also, try reading the Working at Height Directive and the guidance notes that accompany it before attempting to give an informed opinion. ''

I would not dream of trying to interperate and be judgemental on a legal document and I would suggest others should not either. I rely on legal experts to advise me and I do not try to read documents to support a position. If I am advised the wah rules are as per your interpretation I would have to conform immediately and give up work as the alternative is mobile scaffolding which is not only cost prohibitive but non workable in 90% of jobs. - and the wah regs do not single out trades, they are a general guide to best practices for those who work at height ie one use being ladders.

Can you explain  . .  . .  ''Comparing window cleaning to painting and decorating is like comparing apples to a spade.  It's a metaphor that just won't work. ''  . . .  Both trades are up and down ladders like a you know what all day, its just that painters may stay in one position longer which according to this forums posts is even more against the way the regs here have been interpreted.

let me repeat, I am not against wfp, just the way wah is being used.

and I take it you would be quite happy for me to be up and down a ladder on the outside of your house all day as a painter but not as a w/c-er - there is no diffference! Fact! 

JohnL

[Philip Hanson]

Can you explain  . .  . .  ''Comparing window cleaning to painting and decorating is like comparing apples to a spade.  It's a metaphor that just won't work. ''  . . .  Both trades are up and down ladders like a you know what all day, its just that painters may stay in one position longer which according to this forums posts is even more against the way the regs here have been interpreted.

I think what Tosh had in mind here was that for window cleaning, a practicable alternative to work at height exists - WFP.  Not only that, but even long before the WAH regs were around, window cleaners were adopting it for economic as well as safety reasons.

No such practical alternative exists for painters & decorators, therefore (though I am no expert on painting & decorating) the use of work at height could be justified.

If I am advised the wah rules are as per your interpretation I would have to conform immediately and give up work as the alternative is mobile scaffolding which is not only cost prohibitive but non workable in 90% of jobs.

The alternative must be practical, and as you say this situation would not be.  It would be easy to justify the use of work at height for painting, as their isn't a practicable alternative.  Also, using a scaffold tower is not avoiding working at height.  WFP is.

However, could you argue that there isn't practicable alternative for a window cleaner to use?  No, because we have WFP.

If the particulars of the building worked on mean that WFP is not practical (ie access over a flat roof is needed, or work on the upper floors of a skyscraper) then, again work at height could be justified.

and I take it you would be quite happy for me to be up and down a ladder on the outside of your house all day as a painter but not as a w/c-er - there is no diffference! Fact!

The difference is, there is no generally accepted method of painting high up without working at height, but there is for window cleaning.

As Tosh said, rightly in my opinion, painting and window cleaning is not comparing like with like.

the wah regs do not single out trades, they are a general guide to best practices for those who work at height ie one use being ladders

The Regulations are not merely a guide to best practice, they are the law, and you can be prosecuted for breaching them.  You are quite right in that they do not single out individual trades, however, the guidance notes to the consultation document do specifically mention window cleaning in several places.  Among those it says that pole cleaning systems may be used.

-Philip

[JohnL]

Thanks for that Phil, I think I have just had my point made for me 

JohnL

[windows_chepstow]

In the area I live, I think there's just about more WFP window cleaners than traditional ladder users.

Sorry Tosh, I wasn't going to rise to this, but that is just plain wrong.

In this area I know of you and Ian and some other bloke who use Spotting machines Wfp .

I know of at least 10 or 12 who do it with a squeegee.(and I mean at least)

It's not taking on around here, they don't want the bother, and they've seen the results and heard the feedback from the public.

Sorry, but you and Ian are on your own here.

Rog. (not trying to cause arguements)

Philip; thanks!

Rog,

WFP users in the Chepstow area that I know:

Ian Giles
Tomo (also a member here)
John Hughes
Allan (a friend of Tomo)
Curtis
Ken from Ross-on-Wye
Tosh (me)

Ladder users in the Chepstow area that I know:

Roger (you)
Simon G
Terry P (only been window cleaning for 8 months but whose going WFP shortly)

Roger,

give me your list.  I'd be interested to know the window cleaners I haven't met yet.

[Sir Squeaky]

For a start:

Me,
Simon,
George,
Matthew,
Ollie,
Ray(if he goes back to it)
Terry Jones,
John Hedges,
Ollie Sanders,
The old chap who always wears shorts,

& about 3 or 4 others I regularly see who I don't know the name of.

Shall I include Lydney too?

Not to mention the Monmouth ones who work in some of my areas.....

Only ever seen three people using pole.

[windows_chepstow]

Sorry Roger,

But your list wasn't exactly the 10 or 12 you originally mentioned; and Ray has been taxi-driving for around 2 years now. 

However Simon G did tell me he (Ray) was considering a return to window cleaning since he found out about the 'water fed pole'.  Also, since Ray is around 16 to 18 stone now, I think he'd have problems returning to window cleaning in the traditional manner.

And the 'old chap who always wears shorts'; if it's the same one as I think he is; he only does three shops and two houses (or there-abouts).  He won't/can't climb a ladder since he fell off a sloping roof in Aust Crescent and cracked a bone in his ankle.

Roger,

I'll bet within the next five years, you'll own a WFP!  Sooner probably.  Why don't you meet up with us the next time we do Garden City?  You can see how it's done, and after you can check the quality of the work.

If our work is of a sub-standard nature; then you can post the results of it here.  But I'm sure you'll be impressed.  It's quick, easy(ish) and safe.  And does a good job.

Garden City is on your doorstep, so I'm sure we can arrange something.

The thing that amuses me is that you call a WFP a 'spotting machine', when many of my customers accept it as a 'window cleaning machine'.

If I can convert my non-window cleaning customers; why is it so difficult to convert professional window cleaners?

[g_griffin]

Chepstow- The Soap Opera  .

                Gerry.

[windows_chepstow]

Chepstow- The Soap Opera  .

                Gerry.

Gerry,

We also have horse racing, a castle and er, em... loads of hairdressing and charity shops.

[Sir Squeaky]

...and foreign takeaways.

Oh and Tosh, my list was 10 or 12! Count 'em again!

When I mentioned to Ray about wfps(quite recently), he used anglo-saxon phrases I can't repeat here!

Anyway, catch you soon mate, but one person against many won't win me over.

Of course donate me £600+ and a van and I'll contemplate it.

Rog.