Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: frames to panes on January 26, 2008, 10:00:52 pm
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There has been some talk on here from a few people who insist that the future lies in hot water systems, flash vans, glossy four colour leaflets etc. I just wonder what the general feeling is on this for domestic customers. Would it put them off - flash kit etc = expensive so won't bother to phone for a quote? Or WOW! i'll have that?
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Nice thread but what are your thoughts
What would you go for as an individual
take it one stage futher when you need a proffesional around your home what would you go for business card and a mobile number, or a land line and a point of contact that has some thought behind it
evrytime image is every thing
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Personaly, the whole flash van, uniform, hot water system, letter full of over-complicated dribble thing is a big put off for most domestic customers.
You give them your price, they look at what you've got & think, sod that, i'm not paying for his new van, flashy equipment etc! They certainley don't want you to be earning as much as them.
All they want is clean windows, you to be reliable, respectable, polite etc. none of which requires vew vans, hot wfp's etc.(or wfp at all )
On larger commercial jobs it's probably an advantage & on some (cream of the crop) domestic but in (real world) general domestic terms i'd say it's a disadvantage, it's all got to be payed for.
I know the kind of posts you're reffering to dave, sometimes i wonder who they are trying to convince, themselves maybe?
Common sense & a bit of drive is what counts more IMO. We are window cleaners at the end of the day, we've not done years at college studying our craft, it's not what most people consider a skilled job. If you turned up at my house with 20k worth of van & equipment to clean my windows & gave me a quote which reflected this, i, personaly would laugh & tell you where to go. You can drive your business forward & reap the rewards without such expense but you can't run before you can walk either. ;)
Just my 2 pennys worth as per.
Tony
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If your work is mostly domestic how professional you want to be i.e uniform, van, id etc depends the type of customers you are trying to attract.
The customers i have on council estates are more of the '' so you got a new van eh, bet that cost a bomb. i'm i paying for that '' not all only a few. The middle class customers seem to like it more. dont mind paying a bit more knowing you have insurance, look smart etc.
The proof of the pudding for me is i now seem to pick up more work in affulent areas than i ever did before. They see the van and uniform and approach us. When we went out before in our car, ladders & jeans etc that would have never happened.
Hotwater, glossy leaflets and all thats your personal choice. I tend to look at the area i am targetting and use whatever i think will work.
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I have to admit I was looking at leasing a a new van, only because I had fell out with my old Land Rover - it has been giving a lot of trouble recently !! >:(
But she's running nice again now ;D
Anyway - that did go through my mind. That I would be turning up in a flash new van, and as most of my customers are domestic I could see it could have negative effects for a percentage of my round.
I'm glad my old Landy is behaving herself, as I think no one judges my level of success in my old Landy - bless her :-*
I believe for the most domestic rounds being reliable, presentable, friendly and polite are in some ways more important than being able to leave a smear free window :o
For example:
I know for a fact I left some streaks when learning to do WFP, a month later I would apologize to the customer. All that I mentioned this too said , they never noticed any. Its as though me turning up on time, having a cup of tea and chat with them, IS the service
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A very good approach to this topic DJW but i have found that you never really get very far into this before some name calling starts.
Therefore the people who may have something to add hold back. I have put my views forward several times on this and been shouted down.
I like a good argument, a row even, but i prefer to stick to the issues. I think Mac Mac made some good points as did magic1.
Let's say to follow magic ones targeting point, that to fly transatlantic, jet engines are than propellors; for short haul internal routes the opposite might be true.But if you spoke about the future of avaition you would be talking about jet engines.
The other thing to add is that invariably people are talking about themselves. They give you and the pro approach a good slating and then you find out that they only work part time, have another job, bought their round and like to stay compact, or they make they a very good living and just don't see that there could be another approach.
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There is a fine line between being smart / presentable and being flashy. My belief is that you want to appear to be the honest and reliable tradesman that you are. You want to give the impression of being capable and confident.
At the bottom end you have the benefit dodger image, unshaven, trackies, chav cap, fAg etc. At the top end now we have logo-ed vans, uniforms and glossy leaflets.
Both extremes, in my opinion, put people off. In any business, but never more so than with window cleaning, ultimately its you that is important. Be nice, friendly and reliable and your customers will respond to it.
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Thanks guys, nice civil answers on a subject that isn't intended to cause trouble. I wondered because i'm sure a lot of people think they must be paying way too much when they look at my kit even though it's reletively modest by some standards. The fact that the money to purchase it all never came from my cleaning trade dosen't occur to them. One or two even insist on bringing the money to my door which seems a little odd too. Its' a difficult one because being just a windowcleaner your not supposed to earn good money. In the past it has always been seen as one of the lowest trades around and the butt of many jokes. I think wfp is brilliant for bringing the trade in line with other occupations as it looks so much more proffessional.
On another note - i had a lady phone up for a quote yesterday, fronts only, two bay windows and a side pane so about nine panes in all. I quoted six pounds. She nearly passed out and exclaimed that she was only a pensioner!
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Six pounds? thats cheap. But you are always going to get that from a few people.
Years ago I decided to branch out into gardening and delivered a load of leaflets. One of them resulted in a call from a man who had inhereted a nearly derelect house and wanted the garden cleared prior to selling it.
The garden was a jungle and it was big. I gave him a price of £1000. He nearly fell over and said he was thinking in the region of £50.
My friend John had a window cleaner who had cleaned his windows for £4 and never put the price up in 15 years.
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What would i go for? Well with most things i look at the dearest, then look at the cheapest, then normally go in the middle to upper range if i can afford it, but never the top of the range as this is the area where i feel i'm getting ripped off normally. But that's just me.
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Yep its all hogwash.
If you just want to clean windows and earn yourself a decent wage then you can work out the back of a 15 year old escort estate car. You dont even need a pole, window cleaners have managed for years with out any problems (well the odd death but that goes with the territory)
If you want to target the market for cleaning gutters, PVCu building plastics, conservatories etc and you want a chance to earn a very good rate for your time then turning up in the same 15 year old escort with a shammy and a ladder wont get you very far.
It depends on what you want.
However, for those who want the former and think the latter is a load of baloney dont start shouting liar liar when a poster obtains more money for a particular job than you, there is a very good chance they present their business differently to you.
Bottom line is this, if you are earning the money you want to earn in the way you want to earn it, then great.
One thing is for certain in business, nothing stays the same for ever.
Mark
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Thanks for this thread ;)
My "Image" is something I have been thinking about just lately. And, to be honest, I'm not clear as to what I want :-\
My Skoda Felicia and Trailer is feeling untidy to me :-\. The public and customers think it's the biz 8)
Practically........It works well ;).............so why am I niggley about it?
At the end of the day I have to be honest and ask my self to accept the truth.
Find out where I really am now and find out where I want to be.
Then see is it REALLY worth moving on?
If so, how am I realistically going to get there?
Any way, it's Sunday.................
Nice morning.................
I think a stroll on the beach with Tracy is the best move ;)
David
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i bought a new van 14 months ago.....because i wanted a reliable van that looked proffesional, i target large domestic ....my round is established and i know i can afford the payments......
i have had a lot of work off the van signs, and when i reverse into a drive the custie knows who i am , rather than wondering what im doing on their drive......
i still only have 9000 miles on the clock, so im hoping i will get many reliable years out of this van, i want it to last at least another 6-7 years...
i don't do the glossy bruchure thing, but if someone wants to go down that route thats their desision... i am all for trying different forms of marketing....... last year i tried yellow pages.....nowhere near as good as canvassing but it was ok...
taffy
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hi all i was like that got a new van only cus every one i had broke down . the last van blow up and took me off the motorway and rolled in a field nearlly killed me . so i said to myself why not get a new one. my customers like it got new sweetshirts put my name on them i do get look at posh boy i say why not you only come this way once.
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my thoughts on this:
It really depends on where you want to take the business.
Some will be happy to stay trad some diy set up wfp others install van then theres the hot wash systems at the end of the day it is what you want.
None of them are wrong.
as for what customers think, does it put people off if having a flashy van good system nice uniform ect I think yes it will put some off but will also gain ones that could not be got before.
having a car and doing trad works just the same.
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Thanks for this thread ;)
My "Image" is something I have been thinking about just lately. And, to be honest, I'm not clear as to what I want :-\
My Skoda Felicia and Trailer is feeling untidy to me :-\. The public and customers think it's the biz 8)
Practically........It works well ;).............so why am I niggley about it?
At the end of the day I have to be honest and ask my self to accept the truth.
Find out where I really am now and find out where I want to be.
Then see is it REALLY worth moving on?
If so, how am I realistically going to get there?
Any way, it's Sunday.................
Nice morning.................
I think a stroll on the beach with Tracy is the best move ;)
David
Take your wife for a walk.
Image is just that it's an image.
One of the problems with forums like this is the peer pressure it puts on us to "keep up".
Dont change what works well!!
Bear
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Thanks for this thread ;)
My "Image" is something I have been thinking about just lately. And, to be honest, I'm not clear as to what I want :-\
My Skoda Felicia and Trailer is feeling untidy to me :-\. The public and customers think it's the biz 8)
Practically........It works well ;).............so why am I niggley about it?
At the end of the day I have to be honest and ask my self to accept the truth.
Find out where I really am now and find out where I want to be.
Then see is it REALLY worth moving on?
If so, how am I realistically going to get there?
Any way, it's Sunday.................
Nice morning.................
I think a stroll on the beach with Tracy is the best move ;)
David
Take your wife for a walk.
Image is just that it's an image.
One of the problems with forums like this is the peer pressure it puts on us to "keep up".
Dont change what works well!!
Bear
yes and no to that one, sometimes it is peer pressure to keep up, other times it is people just wanting you to stay like them because they cant see it working.
Agree with dont change what works well just build on it
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I think a lot of this image thing comes more from our own viewpoint rather than the customers. We all want to look good - smart proffessional, we would all like a new van with our own company logo and we would all like the top of the range kit inside however, my origional question was wether it makes a domestic customer go for it or against it? I have a feeling that a lot of them would go against it for the reasons mentioned before. There are some excellent replies on here from both angles.
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Personaly, the whole flash van, uniform, hot water system, letter full of over-complicated dribble thing is a big put off for most domestic customers.
You give them your price, they look at what you've got & think, sod that, i'm not paying for his new van, flashy equipment etc! They certainley don't want you to be earning as much as them.
All they want is clean windows, you to be reliable, respectable, polite etc. none of which requires vew vans, hot wfp's etc.(or wfp at all )
On larger commercial jobs it's probably an advantage & on some (cream of the crop) domestic but in (real world) general domestic terms i'd say it's a disadvantage, it's all got to be payed for.
I know the kind of posts you're reffering to dave, sometimes i wonder who they are trying to convince, themselves maybe?
Common sense & a bit of drive is what counts more IMO. We are window cleaners at the end of the day, we've not done years at college studying our craft, it's not what most people consider a skilled job. If you turned up at my house with 20k worth of van & equipment to clean my windows & gave me a quote which reflected this, i, personaly would laugh & tell you where to go. You can drive your business forward & reap the rewards without such expense but you can't run before you can walk either. ;)
Just my 2 pennys worth as per.
Tony
What he said
pretty much anyway ;)
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I think you will attract a certain class of customer depending on how high your profile is. Some people will always want to find the cheapest quote, and personally I don't want that type of customer, there are plenty of window cleaners with a ladder strapped to the roof of their Mondeo who are making a decent living, I choose to look the part and consiquently get bigger and better jobs. I don't think you have to spend a fortune to earn money, it's a personal choice.
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What is for sure is that this game has many variables & what may work for one doesn't for the other.
One gripe that i have with some posts that spring up on this forum is that with this constant drive to have the best, most expensive, hot water, 20k van etc. is that the basics of business are overlooked. At the end of the day, we are nothing without loyal customers, no flashyness is going to provide these for us. Many people will have you believe if you spend 20k on a flash system & top notch van that customers will come begging you to come clean their windows (not true), you'll be over-run with work etc.etc (yawn)
Pure water is very, very easy & cheap to produce, no wfp system in the world is rocket science. Some w/c'res even think a window is sterile when cleaned with wfp ::)(customers must be p***ing themselves laughing after listening to such rubbish).
You sell your self & your service, this can be done on a 1k budget or a 20k budget but the latter will take far more to recover & could have you bust before you even start!
WE ARE WINDOW CLEANERS, NOT BESPOKE FURNITURE MAKERS!
Tony
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I can't help but like your attitude Tony.
:)
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We are also in business. And to think that the rules of business don't apply to us, such as investing in better equipment, and following a business plan that includes proper marketing just seems odd to me.
Most of the posters on this have spoken about thmves. This is an abstract not personal concept. Is proper marketing better or not?
I think it is.
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I can't help but like your attitude Tony.
:)
For me, it's about keeping it realistic, for the majority of circumstances. there's nothing wrong with ambition & higher goals, but two important things stand here.
1. Why do people assume every w/c'er wants such a hectic, high stress lifestyle & not just earn a very good living doing exactly what he is doing now?
2. One must be able to walk before he can run.
Tony
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You saw the post that got deleted?
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You saw the post that got deleted?
What post?
tony
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Important to keep up-to-date, but not to get swept along with the tide.
We have all adopted our own way of working and if it works for you, that's great.
Peter
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Important to keep up-to-date, but not to get swept along with the tide.
We have all adopted our own way of working and if it works for you, that's great.
Peter
wise words ;)
tony
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Mac mac, i find myself being drawn to your posts - i think we must be alike :o eek!
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It was taken down but it asked about the high reach H2O.
The basics of making money in business are well known. Find a way of adding value to a product or service, and then tell people about it.
The theory is that a bagless vacuum or a hot wfp system adds more percieved value. A professional clearly laid out glossy leaflet including photographs of you and your work stating your unique selling propositon (after you have figured out what that is, it might be that you do the windows by hand the traditional way) has to be a good way to tell people about it.
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Mac mac, i find myself being drawn to your posts - i think we must be alike :o eek!
If you're small, fat, bald, ugly, have no mates & even your dog hates you then there is a chance we could have been seperated at birth! :D
tony
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Okay, perhaps the photo doesn't work for everyone.
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Surely all people want is for their windows to be clean, whether its been done by by 3 dwarfs with green spots on the fore-heads or by the local regular guy that comes round, does your neighbours, seems like a nice enough chap (looks presentable, polite, doesnt look too shifty and is just trying to make a ends meet like the rest of the population).
If I spoke to a window-cleaner and he presented me with a glossy colour brochure of him and his system, with the latest state of the art piece of precision engineering hot-water-system that left my windows sterilised with ultra-pure reverse osmosis H20 Id feel the need to ask him if he was going to clean my windows or make love to them.
This aint rocket science, at the end of the day we're cleaners, those who wish to try to portray themselves as something else, fine, but your custys will still only know you as a cleaner.
WFP is a tool, a tool for doing the job (for our benefit as operators) IMO thats all it is, for the average custy all theyre interested in is will it clean them? They dont give a hoot if theyve been cleaned by something that their window cleaner says is the best thing since sliced bread with the latest gadgetry or thingamijig that progress has enabled us to harness for our convenience, all they want is to come home and for those clear square pieces of silicone-sand between their living space and the outside world to be clean.
Thats ALL theyre paying for.
Matt
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Surely all people want is for their windows to be clean, whether its been done by by 3 dwarfs with green spots on the fore-heads or by the local regular guy that comes round, does your neighbours, seems like a nice enough chap (looks presentable, polite, doesnt look too shifty and is just trying to make a ends meet like the rest of the population).
If I spoke to a window-cleaner and he presented me with a glossy colour brochure of him and his system, with the latest state of the art piece of precision engineering hot-water-system that left my windows sterilised with ultra-pure reverse osmosis H20 Id feel the need to ask him if he was going to clean my windows or make love to them.
This aint rocket science, at the end of the day we're cleaners, those who wish to try to portray themselves as something else, fine, but your custys will still only know you as a cleaner.
WFP is a tool, a tool for doing the job (for our benefit as operators) IMO thats all it is, for the average custy all theyre interested in is will it clean them? They dont give a hoot if theyve been cleaned by something that their window cleaner says is the best thing since sliced bread with the latest gadgetry or thingamijig that progress has enabled us to harness for our convenience, all they want is to come home and for those clear square pieces of silicone-sand between their living space and the outside world to be clean.
Thats ALL theyre paying for.
Matt
in a way you are right,
times change, in years to come people will say oh dear dont want them cleaned that way (trad) we want this this and that, which some windwo cleaners now offer you have to remember trad has been around for years as was beta max (they said same thing to VHS as did they say about the dvd and cd.
thing to remember is times do change as do peoples thoughts to it.
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WFP is a tool, a tool for doing the job (for our benefit as operators) IMO thats all it is, for the average custy all theyre interested in is will it clean them? They dont give a hoot if theyve been cleaned by something that their window cleaner says is the best thing since sliced bread with the latest gadgetry or thingamijig that progress has enabled us to harness for our convenience, all they want is to come home and for those clear square pieces of silicone-sand between their living space and the outside world to be clean.
Thats ALL theyre paying for.
Matt
So you only clean windows and nothing else??
Mark
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Surely all people want is for their windows to be clean
Totally wrong in my experience. If that was true, then customers would choose solely on price alone, and they clearly do not (which is good because I'd be out of business if they did)
If you say you're a window cleaner, they expect you to clean the windows, thats taken for granted. What they are prepared to pay for, however, is the polish of the professional.
That could be something simple like wearing shoe covers if you go inside the house or a uniform or wearing a photo ID badge with info they can check up if need be.
Or it can be (esp when going for contracts) making sure they understand that you've invested heabily in the proper equipment and are not a bodge-it man.
The window cleaners I know that have bodged together systems dont manage to get anywhere like the prices I can get, because they dont act professional.
Do they clean the windows as well as me? Of course they do! a clean window is a clean window! Customers arent paying my extra for that, they are paying more for me being a pro with a pro attitude.
Some people will never get their head around this and just dont see the value of investing in your image. Thats great, I'm glad about it because it makes me stand out above them. A pro attitude cant be learned or taught, you've either got it or you havent. And IMO if you think "I'm not paying to have my van properly done, bcos its only window cleaning" then you dont have it and never will. Bad luck for you.
Mike
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Surely all people want is for their windows to be clean
Totally wrong in my experience. If that was true, then customers would choose solely on price alone, and they clearly do not (which is good because I'd be out of business if they did)
If you say you're a window cleaner, they expect you to clean the windows, thats taken for granted. What they are prepared to pay for, however, is the polish of the professional.
That could be something simple like wearing shoe covers if you go inside the house or a uniform or wearing a photo ID badge with info they can check up if need be.
Or it can be (esp when going for contracts) making sure they understand that you've invested heabily in the proper equipment and are not a bodge-it man.
The window cleaners I know that have bodged together systems dont manage to get anywhere like the prices I can get, because they dont act professional.
Do they clean the windows as well as me? Of course they do! a clean window is a clean window! Customers arent paying my extra for that, they are paying more for me being a pro with a pro attitude.
Some people will never get their head around this and just dont see the value of investing in your image. Thats great, I'm glad about it because it makes me stand out above them. A pro attitude cant be learned or taught, you've either got it or you havent. And IMO if you think "I'm not paying to have my van properly done, bcos its only window cleaning" then you dont have it and never will. Bad luck for you.
Mike
refreshing to read that post mike ty ;D, gets me down a little listening to others putting others down all the time for trying to be professional.
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Yes I felt depressed, not so much because they disagreed with me but because their replies were so dull.
If you believe them they never use or are swayed by the glossy chinese and pizza menus that come through the door.Never waste money on package holidays with fancy brochures ,websites, and uniformed staff.Would never dream of using a molly maid or a jims mowing over someone less presentable.
The only valid point they could have made(and they didn't) was that if you have an existing customer of long standing none of this makes any difference to him whatsover.That I can agree with, but by marketing people usually mean growth.
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There will always be differing views - its a forum, however, the idea of the forum is to share information and experience with each other. Take what you think you can use and discard the rest.
New people enter a business, and sometimes they bring with them new ideas, or sometimes ideas from other types of business. I personally feel that certain members resent some of this information , or viewpoint based soley on their percieved status of the poster.
I personally tend to post on topics I know something about, the techno stuff I dont believe I can offer any meaningful or constructive advice about, there are others better qualified on here to comment on such topics.
There will be members of this forum who earn more money from this profession with maybe only a couple of years experience, than some who have been "shining" for 20 years or more. What does that tell you?
As to cost against professionalism. Where does £20 k come from? You can set the job up properley for whatever your budget will allow. And there are many posts which offer you ways of achieving that without spending too much money.
Maybe the "old guard" should open their eyes to differing viewpoints, they may just learn something.
Mark
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Yes I felt depressed, not so much because they disagreed with me but because their replies were so dull.
If you believe them they never use or are swayed by the glossy chinese and pizza menus that come through the door.Never waste money on package holidays with fancy brochures ,websites, and uniformed staff.Would never dream of using a molly maid or a jims mowing over someone less presentable.
The only valid point they could have made(and they didn't) was that if you have an existing customer of long standing none of this makes any difference to him whatsover.That I can agree with, but by marketing people usually mean growth.
I get the feeling of a 'them and us' attitude from your post. Which to me doesnt sit well.
As for being tempted by glossy chinese and pizza menus through the door, nope, not yet.
Glossy holiday brochures, we found the last travel agent we use off teletext, have used them for the last 6 holidays (so that says enough about that, i.e. its damn good, no glossy brochure could change that).
Thats enough from me.
Matt
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Just because we are all window cleaners does not mean that we will or should all follow the same methods or doing the job or of marketing the job.
I am personally on the flashy side of the devide, but I envy the w/c who can make their living without the major investment that I have made.
I have made the investment in vehicles and equipment and image in order to achieve a decent market share in my area(based on I disagreeesment of how I could achieve that), I also believe that it is essential to look pro if you are trying to get the larger commercial work, but that is just my opinion. Fair play to all w/c who can do it on the lower budget end they will probably earn more for their labours than I can for my labours alone but my 12 staff and 8 vans (not there yet) will be worth a lot more when I go to sell it.
This topic would only be relevent if all our goals were the same. It's like comparing apples and oranges they are both fruit but taste different.
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I'd much sooner be argueing with bluez or davo or tenet clean on the next big thing (cleaning solar panels)whether i'm going to make a fortune, and how I should be approaching the marketing of this, than explaining the basics of how business is supposed to work to people.
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Mr. Sol ....cleaning solar panels ..... go on, you have me interested.
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I've thought about that and offered to clean some but a) they are very few and far between in my area and b) the ones i did find wern't bothered anyway. ::)
Again, interesting answers on the marketing subject don't forget it was the domestic market i was talking about. I do find it interesting how some members see themselves as superior to others and would like to know the customers views - which would prove difficult. I always struggle with Mr Solubilities view that i would want a holiday because it had the nicest brochure or a Pizza because the picture looked colourful. But i could be odd i don't know. I tend to go for value for money combined with reputation for most of my requirements. I wouldn't go to the flashiest restaurant and certainly wouldn't go for the most expensive (i want good food at a reasonable price) but we're all different. :)
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My experience is that there are plenty of £6 - £8 per 3 bed semi window cleaners, and if they work hard they can make a more than reasonable income.
I don't try to compete with them, I offer my customers what I believe is a superior service, and I charge a superior price. There are 4 of us (so far) in my business, all with sign written vans and all uniformed.
Many times I hear "Oh yes, I've seen your vans about". It gives prospective customers a sense of security, that they're dealing with a professional organisation who won't turn them over, and who they know they can always contact in the unlikely event of a problem (unlike the "John's" "Bert's" etc whose only contact is a mobile number).
This allows me to sell my service properly, detailing all the advantages we offer, and results in over 95% success in converting leads, at the price I ask.
"The Proof of the Pudding........."
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djw,
you would want a pizza delivered because the leaflet came through your door, Stop putting words into my mouth.
Funnily enough when I first researched leaflets one stood as being head and shoulders better than all the others. So much so that I got in touch with the chap.
He told me that once his wife had followed someone leaflet dropping around an estate. Whe she had nearly finished she saw one of the leaflerts ans saw that it was a window cleaning one. She thought she had wasted her time.
In fact he got quite a few phone calls and more than one made the comment that they phoned him because his leaflet was clearer.
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Did i say that? sorry, fair enough i'm not looking to argue (this time :) ). It's a subject that i genuinely wanted to hear both sides.
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I think Mr.Sol' must have been a car salesman in a previous life ;D
A car salesman once told me to think about my image when i was going to buy a new car, i told him not to insult my intelligence & left him in no doubt that because of this comment i would never buy a car from him ( plus a few other choice words ).
Tony
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I think Mr.Sol' must have been a car salesman in a previous life ;D
A car salesman once told me to think about my image when i was going to buy a new car, i told him not to insult my intelligence & left him in no doubt that because of this comment i would never buy a car from him ( plus a few other choice words ).
Tony
Mr S is a market trader ;) but also clued up on the marketing side IMO
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I think Mr.Sol' must have been a car salesman in a previous life ;D
A car salesman once told me to think about my image when i was going to buy a new car, i told him not to insult my intelligence & left him in no doubt that because of this comment i would never buy a car from him ( plus a few other choice words ).
Tony
Mr S is a market trader ;) but also clued up on the marketing side IMO
So clued up he has to have two jobs?
tony
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I think Mr.Sol' must have been a car salesman in a previous life ;D
A car salesman once told me to think about my image when i was going to buy a new car, i told him not to insult my intelligence & left him in no doubt that because of this comment i would never buy a car from him ( plus a few other choice words ).
Tony
Mr S is a market trader ;) but also clued up on the marketing side IMO
So clued up he has to have two jobs?
tony
or chooses too ;)
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When i bought my house i was chatting to the solicitor and he asked me what i did for a living and when i told him he said "you must be a wealthy man because window cleaner make a good living." This comment stood out for two reasons
First a solicitor was telling me i must have a good income with no irony implied.
Second this sort of comment is very rare as most people see window cleaning as a low paid job.
Out of my customers i could pick some who if i had the brand new van and ultra pro image would grumble that i was earning too much money. also i can think of some who would be please for me because i was visibly doing well.
How does image affect earning?
well for established customers who know you provide a good service are reliable and honest probably not a great deal.
For new customers it will help shape their view of you and your business ie thats a nice van he must be successfull and therefore good at what he does.
The main thing is you have a proffessional image you must live up to it because a great deal of custom on domestics will be gained through word of mouth.
Also how we see ourselfs and how our customers see us may be entirely different personlly i like my customers to see me as hard honest hard working and friendly etc... as it draws attention to me and my work rather than the price of the job and how long or quickly it is done.
p.s british folks hate success and are easily jealous of what other people have.
pps this post is a lot of waffle as it is quite a diifficult subject to put into words.
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I think Mr.Sol' must have been a car salesman in a previous life ;D
A car salesman once told me to think about my image when i was going to buy a new car, i told him not to insult my intelligence & left him in no doubt that because of this comment i would never buy a car from him ( plus a few other choice words ).
Tony
Mr S is a market trader ;) but also clued up on the marketing side IMO
So clued up he has to have two jobs?
tony
2?
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Yes I felt depressed, not so much because they disagreed with me but because their replies were so dull.
If you believe them they never use or are swayed by the glossy chinese and pizza menus that come through the door.Never waste money on package holidays with fancy brochures ,websites, and uniformed staff.Would never dream of using a molly maid or a jims mowing over someone less presentable.
The only valid point they could have made(and they didn't) was that if you have an existing customer of long standing none of this makes any difference to him whatsover.That I can agree with, but by marketing people usually mean growth.
I get the feeling of a 'them and us' attitude from your post. Which to me doesnt sit well.
As for being tempted by glossy chinese and pizza menus through the door, nope, not yet.
Glossy holiday brochures, we found the last travel agent we use off teletext, have used them for the last 6 holidays (so that says enough about that, i.e. its damn good, no glossy brochure could change that).
Thats enough from me.
Matt
Matt EVERYBODY is effected by marketing, whether they like it not. From the food you buy, to the vehicle you drive to the restaurant you take your children to. The annoyance I think Mr Solubility talks about(IMO, I cant speak for him) is that some people are too stubborn.OR too stupid to realise that, or maybe if they did concede to that particular fact it may detract from the validity of their argument.
Mark
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We wouldnt have jobs to go to if we didnt do some sort of marketing, I get that Dave, but I, IMO, see it a little more realistically about who we are and what service we provide. We clean windows, end of story.
Theres far too many variables and value in the motoring or food market to start thinking your marketing needs to be on a par with them.
As an example I went to price up a job today, I knocked on their door, smart/signed t-shirt, shaved, smiled, shook the guys hand, introduced myself and gave him my card; it has a mobile and landline number on it as well as the fact that I also offer gutter cleaning/fascia cleaning and have Public Liability Insurance. I asked him if it was ok to look around, I gave him the price, told him how frequently I would visit, explained about payment if theyre not in, explained how the job would be done, how Id leave the place (sills/frames wiped off).
He was contented, what more could I have done, he only rang me as he wants his windows cleaned.
I could have given him an 8 page glossy mag with pictures of shiny ladders and sparkling windows in it, with gleaming plastic fascias and snapshots of happy smiling satisfied Mrs Average, why?
Matt
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Matt I appreciate your point of view, however, the "Im only a window cleaner" mind set can affect the work you take on and the prices that you can achieve ON CERTAIN JOBS.
Granted most people wont pay large sums of money to have their windows cleaned, no matter how nice the van the logo the leaflet you put through their door. BECAUSE THEY ONLY WANT THEIR WINDOWS CLEANED.
However there are certain jobs, such as conservatory cleans, soffits facias etc, that present an oportunity to earn a higher rate ( its not cleaning windows, its a different service so the customer doesnt really know how much they should be paying for that type of work)
Now as "only the window cleaner" you may think ok soffits, gutters facias (PVCu Clean) cleaning, 1 hrs worth of work Ill charge her £60 ( good hourly rate for "only a window cleaner")
BUT the same 1 hour PVCu clean could be worth £150 IF YOU MARKET YOURSELF PROPERLY.
Now I would have thought an extra £90 for an hours work is worth opening your eyes and ears for. Saying that "Im not a window cleaner" Im only a sales man.
Mark
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Only people who want to increase their work level price, or work quality bother to market. Why are we trying to convince w/c who have enough work to market. They have enough, no amount of common business sense from DAVO will convince the sceptic. :-X
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davo, i am a window cleaner with waterfed pole etc and was thinking of going into the upvc cleaning business. which is the best way to market it in your opinion?
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Matt I appreciate your point of view, however, the "Im only a window cleaner" mind set can affect the work you take on and the prices that you can achieve ON CERTAIN JOBS.
Granted most people wont pay large sums of money to have their windows cleaned, no matter how nice the van the logo the leaflet you put through their door. BECAUSE THEY ONLY WANT THEIR WINDOWS CLEANED.
However there are certain jobs, such as conservatory cleans, soffits facias etc, that present an oportunity to earn a higher rate ( its not cleaning windows, its a different service so the customer doesnt really know how much they should be paying for that type of work)
Now as "only the window cleaner" you may think ok soffits, gutters facias (PVCu Clean) cleaning, 1 hrs worth of work Ill charge her £60 ( good hourly rate for "only a window cleaner")
BUT the same 1 hour PVCu clean could be worth £150 IF YOU MARKET YOURSELF PROPERLY.
Now I would have thought an extra £90 for an hours work is worth opening your eyes and ears for. Saying that "Im not a window cleaner" Im only a sales man.
Mark
Davo
Most w/c'ers already know all this, we're not thick. do you honestly think your oppinions are something new, enlightening? they're not mate. It's basic business skills or - common sense. ;)
Most w/c'ers know how to get the best money per situation & know of the other services they could provide should they wish or be arsed to do so.
There are many definitions to the word "success"
Tony
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Matt I appreciate your point of view, however, the "Im only a window cleaner" mind set can affect the work you take on and the prices that you can achieve ON CERTAIN JOBS.
Granted most people wont pay large sums of money to have their windows cleaned, no matter how nice the van the logo the leaflet you put through their door. BECAUSE THEY ONLY WANT THEIR WINDOWS CLEANED.
However there are certain jobs, such as conservatory cleans, soffits facias etc, that present an oportunity to earn a higher rate ( its not cleaning windows, its a different service so the customer doesnt really know how much they should be paying for that type of work)
Now as "only the window cleaner" you may think ok soffits, gutters facias (PVCu Clean) cleaning, 1 hrs worth of work Ill charge her £60 ( good hourly rate for "only a window cleaner")
BUT the same 1 hour PVCu clean could be worth £150 IF YOU MARKET YOURSELF PROPERLY.
Now I would have thought an extra £90 for an hours work is worth opening your eyes and ears for. Saying that "Im not a window cleaner" Im only a sales man.
Mark
Davo
Most w/c'ers already know all this, we're not thick. do you honestly think your oppinions are something new, enlightening? they're not mate. It's basic business skills or - common sense. ;)
Most w/c'ers know how to get the best money per situation & know of the other services they could provide should they wish or be arsed to do so.
There are many definitions to the word "success"
Tony
OK then mac mac then why do so many posters on this forum shout down anyone who obtains good rates for their work? A recent poster re conservatory cleans was given the " oh another dreamer" type reception. If all the members of this forum already "know" all this "basic" business stuff then why do posters still post questions regarding aspects of marketing?
Obviously someone such as yourself who already knows should put fingers to keyboard and help them out a little.
I look forward to your detailed post on marketing PVCu cleans, as Im sure will others on this forum.
Oh and a quick paragraph on "price conditioning " would be good too.
Mark
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.......... light the blue touchpaper. :o
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I can't see why anyone gets flak over how much they have spent on equipment. wfp, van, hot water system etc. We all want to make our working life easier or at least more efficient and it's always the people who don't have the kit who dishes it out.
I've often been asked how much i've spent on wfp by my customers and when i tell them over 3k they all go phewwww. But when i tell them i could have gone wfp for around £500, but as i do it commercially i need kit to cover all options they understand and many comment about my committment.
We need to realise that whatever we wear, drive, present ourselves to customers and the kit we use is a form of marketing ourselves anyway.
I'm sure i'm not the only 1 but i have picked up work at better prices than i could have achieved with a car and ladder, since i got a van and wfp.
Though i'm sure there are trad only guys on here thinking it's rubbish cos they command good prices too without van and wfp.
While our working goals are similar we are all different and will choose different ways to improve ourselves cos it fits in with how we feel about what we need.
This forum is a much better place for balanced opinions now than 2 years ago, since the trad Vs wfp and factory built over diy dabates have matured.
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Matt I appreciate your point of view, however, the "Im only a window cleaner" mind set can affect the work you take on and the prices that you can achieve ON CERTAIN JOBS.
Granted most people wont pay large sums of money to have their windows cleaned, no matter how nice the van the logo the leaflet you put through their door. BECAUSE THEY ONLY WANT THEIR WINDOWS CLEANED.
However there are certain jobs, such as conservatory cleans, soffits facias etc, that present an oportunity to earn a higher rate ( its not cleaning windows, its a different service so the customer doesnt really know how much they should be paying for that type of work)
Now as "only the window cleaner" you may think ok soffits, gutters facias (PVCu Clean) cleaning, 1 hrs worth of work Ill charge her £60 ( good hourly rate for "only a window cleaner")
BUT the same 1 hour PVCu clean could be worth £150 IF YOU MARKET YOURSELF PROPERLY.
Now I would have thought an extra £90 for an hours work is worth opening your eyes and ears for. Saying that "Im not a window cleaner" Im only a sales man.
Mark
Davo
Most w/c'ers already know all this, we're not thick. do you honestly think your oppinions are something new, enlightening? they're not mate. It's basic business skills or - common sense. ;)
Most w/c'ers know how to get the best money per situation & know of the other services they could provide should they wish or be arsed to do so.
There are many definitions to the word "success"
Tony
OK then mac mac then why do so many posters on this forum shout down anyone who obtains good rates for their work? A recent poster re conservatory cleans was given the " oh another dreamer" type reception. If all the members of this forum already "know" all this "basic" business stuff then why do posters still post questions regarding aspects of marketing?
Obviously someone such as yourself who already knows should put fingers to keyboard and help them out a little.
I look forward to your detailed post on marketing PVCu cleans, as Im sure will others on this forum.
Oh and a quick paragraph on "price conditioning " would be good too.
Mark
You going out & cleaning some windows, dealing with w/c customers first hand & talking from experience I, too will look forward to. Theory is for people with too much time on their hands! ;)
Tony
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As for the 1 hour PVC clean= quote 150, tells you to get lost, 60 & get the job.
So YOU would have lost 60 quid & NOT gained 90.
I, on the other hand would have gained 60 quid ;)
What about that side of the coin?
Hows that song go? "so why you wanna go & put stars in their eyes" :D
Tony
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Mark Dew very good post. Maybe you put the argument a little better than we did and it is more acceptable.
MacMac, we all thought you were going to blow your stack and you didn't so good for you. I will say though that Davo has put several interesting ideas forward before now and altered my approach a couple of times. I haven't got my first year in yet MacMac but I am finding building a business very exciting. Sometimes I want to share that, and as i've said before I always regard other fforum members as my co directors. As I work alone this is the only feedback I get.
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I can't see why anyone gets flak over how much they have spent on equipment. wfp, van, hot water system etc. We all want to make our working life easier or at least more efficient and it's always the people who don't have the kit who dishes it out.
I've often been asked how much i've spent on wfp by my customers and when i tell them over 3k they all go phewwww. But when i tell them i could have gone wfp for around £500, but as i do it commercially i need kit to cover all options they understand and many comment about my committment.
We need to realise that whatever we wear, drive, present ourselves to customers and the kit we use is a form of marketing ourselves anyway.
I'm sure i'm not the only 1 but i have picked up work at better prices than i could have achieved with a car and ladder, since i got a van and wfp.
Though i'm sure there are trad only guys on here thinking it's rubbish cos they command good prices too without van and wfp.
While our working goals are similar we are all different and will choose different ways to improve ourselves cos it fits in with how we feel about what we need.
This forum is a much better place for balanced opinions now than 2 years ago, since the trad Vs wfp and factory built over diy dabates have matured.
i also tell my commercail customers ive spent over 4 K on my system, its what they want to hear when i go in for site meetings / sales pitch etc etc, but the truth is, i then arrive and do the job with my DIY system, the end result is the same, they are happy with my H&S outlook and the glass it clean
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so you're a liar then?
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Mark said this forum is a better place since the WFP over trad, and DIY over factory systems debates have matured. And they have matured (apart from us calling each other liars).
Your original ethos Matt when you started the DIY site was to help any WC get set up WFP on a shoestring budget. I'm sure you helped a lot of people. You helped me.
That was the first wave though, and we are past that. Take the 17'xtel fibreglass telescopic at £65. Why should you need to build a pole? My vikan brush with fan jets is fantastic, what are they twenty five quid?
No one builds there own computers anymore do they? you just buy one. Write your own programmes? why?
What people want now is rainwater harvesting systems, hot systems at affordable prices, electric reels.And more importantly there are other aspects to DIY, such as DIY marketing. Mark Dew doesn't employ a marketing manager, he does it himself. If I can nick an idea off him I will, and I'm sure he'd do the same.
The people slating me as a flash git with an eight page glossy leaflet, super sonic system, and a bloke who needs to 'get real' should realise my leaflet is A5 has two sides and includes a good photo and comment from myself. I don't claim to be honest, or even friendly and reliable, people can see me and make their own mind up.
That's my idea of DIY marketing, paying £140 for 10,000 supplying the copy and a jpeg. I've spent the last year covered in ink printing my own, and this is a much more cost effective option.
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Thats an accountantcy ratio. They use it as a tool to judge one against another.
WC has a very low investment. Even a top end system is pennies in these terms. No premises, no stock to buy etc.
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so you're a liar then?
no, not at all
" my system " i use loosely, it could include my van, it could include my IT set-up
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Mr Solubility, i don't remember you getting slated as such, i merely questioned as to wether it was worth doing for the domestic customer, wether it would be wasted to have all the technology etc. I don't know. I had thought you were a long established cleaner in the business of wfp and as it turns out you are a reletive newbie much like myself. Perhaps when you have become more established and then can see a positive return for your ideas then let us know if it works. I don't understand how you know your right when you've not come that far?
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As for the 1 hour PVC clean= quote 150, tells you to get lost, 60 & get the job.
So YOU would have lost 60 quid & NOT gained 90.
I, on the other hand would have gained 60 quid ;)
What about that side of the coin?
Hows that song go? "so why you wanna go & put stars in their eyes" :D
Tony
Now Mac Mac...I'll put you straight, the way I work I would have had a chance at £190 at £150 at £100 and £80, all before I settled on £60( If I had to). And thats why you aint the sharpest tool in the box.
But good luck anyway. Still waiting for your expert advice on Marketing PVCu cleans. See youve got me giving you snippets of what to do now....you are a crafty fella aint ya.
Mark
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As for the 1 hour PVC clean= quote 150, tells you to get lost, 60 & get the job.
So YOU would have lost 60 quid & NOT gained 90.
I, on the other hand would have gained 60 quid ;)
What about that side of the coin?
Hows that song go? "so why you wanna go & put stars in their eyes" :D
Tony
Now Mac Mac...I'll put you straight, the way I work I would have had a chance at £190 at £150 at £100 and £80, all before I settled on £60( If I had to). And thats why you aint the sharpest tool in the box.
But good luck anyway. Still waiting for your expert advice on Marketing PVCu cleans. See youve got me giving you snippets of what to do now....you are a crafty fella aint ya.
Mark
190 down to 60 ::) That's a realy good way of selling your expert service. What must the customer think when they realise you were standing there trying to rip them off good & proper? ALARM BELLS START RINGING! something not right here, that's less than a third of what you just quoted 2 mins ago ??? are you dodgy, insured, con-man- well you are a con man, you just tried to take me for 130 quid for a service your now admitting is only worth 60 quid ??? now off you go I'll get the regular guy (who i trust) to do it.
I'll repeat myself just for you davo ::)
Theory is for people who have too much time on their hands & no common sense. It also shows in this case you have no knowlage of 99% of w/c'ers customers.
You've been to too many seminars lad. ;)
Tony
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As for the 1 hour PVC clean= quote 150, tells you to get lost, 60 & get the job.
So YOU would have lost 60 quid & NOT gained 90.
I, on the other hand would have gained 60 quid ;)
What about that side of the coin?
Hows that song go? "so why you wanna go & put stars in their eyes" :D
Tony
Now Mac Mac...I'll put you straight, the way I work I would have had a chance at £190 at £150 at £100 and £80, all before I settled on £60( If I had to). And thats why you aint the sharpest tool in the box.
But good luck anyway. Still waiting for your expert advice on Marketing PVCu cleans. See youve got me giving you snippets of what to do now....you are a crafty fella aint ya.
Mark
190 down to 60 ::) That's a realy good way of selling your expert service. What must the customer think when they realise you were standing there trying to rip them off good & proper? ALARM BELLS START RINGING! something not right here, that's less than a third of what you just quoted 2 mins ago ??? are you dodgy, insured, con-man- well you are a con man, you just tried to take me for 130 quid for a service your now admitting is only worth 60 quid ??? now off you go I'll get the regular guy (who i trust) to do it.
I'll repeat myself just for you davo ::)
Theory is for people who have too much time on their hands & no common sense. It also shows in this case you have no knowlage of 99% of w/c'ers customers.
You've been to to many seminars lad. ;)
Tony
Mac Mac..your post really does show your naivety about how the sales process works. You are like many amateur sales people I meet, they think they have the gift of the gab, can sell sand to the arabs etc.
There are things that can be said to customers which enable you to drop your price without losing any credability. But for me to explain them to yourself would be a total waste of time, you havent grasped the basics yet. Unfortuantely with your own perception of yourself you have nothing to learn. I am fortunate I learn something every day.
Oh and although I sell products to members of the public for a few thousand pounds a time, the same principles work on a £1000 sale as they do on a £10 sale.
You seem to think that the rules that apply to sales and marketing somehow dont apply to people who have their windows cleaned. Are you aware of how absurd that is?
As for the "you've been to too many seminars laddy" I dont think that comment warrants a reply, apart from it just reinforces how big the chip is thats stuck on your shoulder.
I can only conclude fellow forum members that Mac Mac is unable to offer any advice on the marketing of PVCu cleans, and if he does manage to put together a reply I would be extremely sceptical as to its value.
Mark
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As for the 1 hour PVC clean= quote 150, tells you to get lost, 60 & get the job.
So YOU would have lost 60 quid & NOT gained 90.
I, on the other hand would have gained 60 quid ;)
What about that side of the coin?
Hows that song go? "so why you wanna go & put stars in their eyes" :D
Tony
Now Mac Mac...I'll put you straight, the way I work I would have had a chance at £190 at £150 at £100 and £80, all before I settled on £60( If I had to). And thats why you aint the sharpest tool in the box.
But good luck anyway. Still waiting for your expert advice on Marketing PVCu cleans. See youve got me giving you snippets of what to do now....you are a crafty fella aint ya.
Mark
190 down to 60 ::) That's a realy good way of selling your expert service. What must the customer think when they realise you were standing there trying to rip them off good & proper? ALARM BELLS START RINGING! something not right here, that's less than a third of what you just quoted 2 mins ago ??? are you dodgy, insured, con-man- well you are a con man, you just tried to take me for 130 quid for a service your now admitting is only worth 60 quid ??? now off you go I'll get the regular guy (who i trust) to do it.
I'll repeat myself just for you davo ::)
Theory is for people who have too much time on their hands & no common sense. It also shows in this case you have no knowlage of 99% of w/c'ers customers.
You've been to to many seminars lad. ;)
Tony
Mac Mac..your post really does show your naivety about how the sales process works. You are like many amateur sales people I meet, they think they have the gift of the gab, can sell sand to the arabs etc.
There are things that can be said to customers which enable you to drop your price without losing any credability. But for me to explain them to yourself would be a total waste of time, you havent grasped the basics yet. Unfortuantely with your own perception of yourself you have nothing to learn. I am fortunate I learn something every day.
Oh and although I sell products to members of the public for a few thousand pounds a time, the same principles work on a £1000 sale as they do on a £10 sale.
You seem to think that the rules that apply to sales and marketing somehow dont apply to people who have their windows cleaned. Are you aware of how absurd that is?
As for the "you've been to too many seminars laddy" I dont think that comment warrants a reply, apart from it just reinforces how big the chip is thats stuck on your shoulder.
I can only conclude fellow forum members that Mac Mac is unable to offer any advice on the marketing of PVCu cleans, and if he does manage to put together a reply I would be extremely sceptical as to its value.
Mark
Retail sales manager
Painter and decorator
Door Sales British Gas
Manager of window replacement company
Sales manager
These were your previous jobs (you listed them). You were obviousley so successful at these that now in your 40's you've decided to go window cleaning. You must have just got bored?
You've been window cleaning for how long?
I however, offer advise on things that i know about & have experience in & what is relative & realistic to the majority of my fellow w/c'ers. I only need to look at your back posts to see who the naive one is ;D
You'll learn son, keep up the entertainment.
You could try the kirby vacume cleaner career ;)
Tony
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Just had another idea-
I'll start off at 190 & then blind them with w/c science. tell them that for every tenner i drop the TDS goes up. So by the time i get down to 60 i can just plug straight into their outside tap & throw a bit of dust in for good measure. :D
Am i good or what?
mac "Thinking outside the box" mac
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Mac Mac why change the subject. Instead of trying to discredit me with how many jobs ive had in the last 30 years answer one simple question.
Can you or can you not , with your many many years of valuable experience as a window cleaner explain a simple marketing stratedgy for PVCu cleans?
One where you can drop the price without losing credability, oh and the TDS nonsense of your last post just demonstrates how upset you seem to get when you dont get your own way.
A very simple yes or no will suffice.
Mark
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Yes
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Davo let me know please and put macmac out of pain. :P
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Yes
Thankyou for the straight answer, now my next question is , would you share it with the rest of the forum?
Again a yes or no will do.
Mark
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Yes
Thankyou for the straight answer, now my next question is , would you share it with the rest of the forum?
Again a yes or no will do.
Mark
No
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Ian as mac mac has declined to offer his undoubted expertise on the subject of marketing PVCu cleans. I will be more than happy to give you some ideas on what may help you to achieve a higher price for such work.
However its way past my bedtime, I will sort it out tomorrow ( bet ya cant wait really can ya)
ps mac mac...Ill give you credit where credit is due, you know your onions when it comes to the equipment side.
Mark
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Ian as mac mac has declined to offer his undoubted expertise on the subject of marketing PVCu cleans. I will be more than happy to give you some ideas on what may help you to achieve a higher price for such work.
However its way past my bedtime, I will sort it out tomorrow ( bet ya cant wait really can ya)
ps mac mac...Ill give you credit where credit is due, you know your onions when it comes to the equipment side.
Mark
So your going to make me sit here all night waiting :'(
I learn new things everyday, maybe this will be a new thing I can learn ;)
Ian
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Ian as mac mac has declined to offer his undoubted expertise on the subject of marketing PVCu cleans. I will be more than happy to give you some ideas on what may help you to achieve a higher price for such work.
However its way past my bedtime, I will sort it out tomorrow ( bet ya cant wait really can ya)
ps mac mac...Ill give you credit where credit is due, you know your onions when it comes to the equipment side.
Mark
Shall we agree to dissagree & get some beauty sleep? ;)
tony
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yep, night mac mac, you keep busy.
Mark
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yep, night mac mac, you keep busy.
Mark
Go on then, you hang up first :P
tony
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yep, night mac mac, you keep busy.
Mark
Go on then, you hang up first :P
tony
;D
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I hope you two arent in the same house using different computers. By the way I agree with you macmac ....and you davo.. ;)
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Mr Solubility, i don't remember you getting slated as such, i merely questioned as to wether it was worth doing for the domestic customer, wether it would be wasted to have all the technology etc. I don't know. I had thought you were a long established cleaner in the business of wfp and as it turns out you are a reletive newbie much like myself. Perhaps when you have become more established and then can see a positive return for your ideas then let us know if it works. I don't understand how you know your right when you've not come that far?
I don't remember saying I was right, or insisting that I am right. I've been taking part in a debate about marketing, and whether it's worthwhile taking seriously for a small wc concern. I have stuck to the issues and have never claimed to be anything i'm not.
You don't seem to understand this as a concept. You must watch too much Jeremy Kyle where it's all settled by the biggest mouth and lie and dna detector tests.
On forums like this differences are allowed. It's not the end of the world.
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Correct, i haven't tried your methods of marketing which is why i posted the question in the first place. If it turned out that yes it is the best way to gain work to have the flashest van, the best equipment and the most gawdy brochures then i too would probably have to start looking at your marketing ideas. If you read the first post again you will see the question, unfortunately the answers have tended to deviate a little. The only way to know would be if the people with the most experience were to reply who have been there and done that. :)
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Perhaps you should read your own first post yourself. You asked for views You didn't ask for qualifications or lenght of service etc.And the person starting the topic can't control it's direction.
It was touched on earlier by Davo that people can bring ideas in from other fields. These are particularly usefull if the person happens to be a proven success.
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Now Mac Mac...I'll put you straight, the way I work I would have had a chance at £190 at £150 at £100 and £80, all before I settled on £60( If I had to). And thats why you aint the sharpest tool in the box.
But good luck anyway. Still waiting for your expert advice on Marketing PVCu cleans. See youve got me giving you snippets of what to do now....you are a crafty fella aint ya.
Mark
190 down to 60!!!!!
i had a quote from what i thought was a reputable national double glazing company (if there is such a thing)the sales man quoted me something stupid like 12 grand i said i didn't realise it would be so much and i was not looking to spend so much he dropped the price to 9grand i said no its too much he came down to 6grand i said no i cant afford it at the moment as i was spending money on other things in the house so he said he could give me fianance i said no so he gets on the phone to his "manager" and dropped the price to 2 1/2grand i escorted him off my property! my first thought was i could have just nearly paid 10grand over what i needed to secpnd my respect for that company was gone and i wouldn't have them if they charged 2pound fifty.
Please davo explain how you can justify a 68% reduction in price to a customer and still retain your credibility.
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Mr Solubility, i don't remember you getting slated as such, i merely questioned as to wether it was worth doing for the domestic customer, wether it would be wasted to have all the technology etc. I don't know. I had thought you were a long established cleaner in the business of wfp and as it turns out you are a reletive newbie much like myself. Perhaps when you have become more established and then can see a positive return for your ideas then let us know if it works. I don't understand how you know your right when you've not come that far?
I don't remember saying I was right, or insisting that I am right. I've been taking part in a debate about marketing, and whether it's worthwhile taking seriously for a small wc concern. I have stuck to the issues and have never claimed to be anything i'm not.
You don't seem to understand this as a concept. You must watch too much Jeremy Kyle where it's all settled by the biggest mouth and lie and dna detector tests.
On forums like this differences are allowed. It's not the end of the world.
Could have a field day with that lie detector on here. :D
The lie detector i'd pass, but the big mouth test? Hmmmm, not sure :-X
Tony
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Now Mac Mac...I'll put you straight, the way I work I would have had a chance at £190 at £150 at £100 and £80, all before I settled on £60( If I had to). And thats why you aint the sharpest tool in the box.
But good luck anyway. Still waiting for your expert advice on Marketing PVCu cleans. See youve got me giving you snippets of what to do now....you are a crafty fella aint ya.
Mark
190 down to 60!!!!!
i had a quote from what i thought was a reputable national double glazing company (if there is such a thing)the sales man quoted me something stupid like 12 grand i said i didn't realise it would be so much and i was not looking to spend so much he dropped the price to 9grand i said no its too much he came down to 6grand i said no i cant afford it at the moment as i was spending money on other things in the house so he said he could give me fianance i said no so he gets on the phone to his "manager" and dropped the price to 2 1/2grand i escorted him off my property! my first thought was i could have just nearly paid 10grand over what i needed to secpnd my respect for that company was gone and i wouldn't have them if they charged 2pound fifty.
Please davo explain how you can justify a 68% reduction in price to a customer and still retain your credibility.
He's going to explain all tonight i think.
Bet you warned everyone you knew about this (reputable ???) window company too, i would have & that has got to be bad for business. imagine how damaging this could be to a business that relies on good customer relations & local reputation :o
Tony
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ok this is the very short version of a credible drop close, ur double glazing salesman was taking the p*ss. And no ive never sold double glazing , conservatories or cars.
Break down barriers as quickly as possible, if its an existing customer its easy.
" I bet the man who sold you your PVCu roofline said it was maintenance free, well Im sorry to tell you HE LIED, to keep it in tip top condotion it needs proper regular maintenance...( you talk in the way you normally talk, dont pretend to be posh, and dont over dress, customers are suspicious of anyone over dressed who visits their house. the man who sold them the roofline for £x,ooo'S was probably wearing a suit) you need them to see that your a straight talking honest fella ( if you have an issue with earning money stop reading now)
Now fortunately were very busy with our PVCu cleaning, theres lots of it about and many other companies out there dont really know how to clean it properly, there are even some companies using chemicals that actually damage your PVCu
Talk through the method of cleaning, dont tell them exactly how you do it, they dont need to know that.
As I said before were very busy, our business philosophy is quite simple, we will give you a top quality professional job at an affordable price, its very important to us as a company that we offer you quality and value for money.....
(price conditioning) they know they are going to get the right service at the right price, but they dont know how much.
Price wise ...." it depends on the level of service clean you want..for our top clean which includes xyz.. Ive heard other companies charge £x per meter that would work out at arround £275 for you house, our price for that same clean would be £x per meter that works out at £190 (again repeat what there getting) LOOK FOR REACTION AND BUYING SIGNALS AS YOU PRICE CONDITION I
eg
"I can see youve looked after your house and a top notch job is important to you isnt it?...etc etc "
It will alter the opening price, but dont prejudge too much, you will be suprised sometimes.
then ask them the question... "so how does that sound would you like me to book you in?"
yes / no /can I think about it....
justify coming down in price, you cant just reduce your price without justification.
offer full 5 star clean for no less than £150 ( will include applying a polish when uve cleaned it)
ask them how much they have in mind? tell them u have quite alot of customers who dont want that level of clean, If you dont want the " finishing wax" or whatever u want to call it, then that will bring the price down to £X ( hopefully they will have told you how much they were thinking of spending) but if not you must justify the drop, ur offering them a chance to buy the level of service they can afford ( there are many variables , but the basic structure of the drop is the same)
If you offer the exact same service all the way through youve lost all credabilityand I wouldnt buy from you either. Play it through your head, IT HAS GOT TO MAKE SENSE, THERE HAS TO BE A VALID REASON WHY YOU CAN REDUCE THE PRICE.
Thats the quick version, if anyone is interested, I will explain how it works in the customers head in more detail, but to do it on this post would take me 3/4 hours.
Mark
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but you are stan ogden ! cant get that image of him pushing a trolley with ladders on it out of my mind !
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i thought everyone used a chemical to clean pvcu. if not a chemical, what do you use..great thead by the way!!!!
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To which the customer will reply " i just wanted it cleaned not replaced for christ sake" "i can wipe the green stuff off myself above the front door!" I know because some wally already tried the same trick on one of my customers and thats exactly the reply he gave.
Are you actually getting away with this con trick or is it something you have dreamed about?
If you came out with that rubbish on an elderly relative of mine i'd be looking for you the next day.
Sounds like "we've got some hot tar left over from the last job" etc. Amway and Kerby spring to mind too. Do you have flip charts at home as well?
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Con trick??
What giving yourself an opportunity to earn money, finding the customers level of affordability?
DJW go out and clean em for a tenner for me. Its upto you
a con is when u take the £20 deposit and scarper.
Mark
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didn't that jt barnum bloke say there is a sucker born every minute?
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Davo, are you a genuine windowcleaner yet?
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Got to say davo, i'm very dissapointed, there was a tiny, tiny, part of me just begining to think i may have missed your whole point before but no, i could have typed your post for you. it contained exactly what i thought it would. Predictable, desperate salesman's patter. the type that people get at their door every other day & are well conditioned to. It may well have some success in other areas of business but IMO it's not the right approach for this one.
This is what we see every week on rougue traders ( the predictable, desperate bit).
only IMO ofcourse. ;)
Tony
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Awesome thread!!! started reading it at about half nine and now its 2moro and im going to be done in for work! mark and tony's little soap opera (excuse the pun) beats eastenders handsdown!! I love tony's general attitude to life but I can't knock mark for his attitude to making money if someone is prepared to pay and you can convince them that they are getting value for money then it's all fair game to me. However the question on everyones lips is: Mark, are you David Brent in disguise?? ARE YOU DAVID, ARE YOU DAVID, ARE YOU DAVID BRENT IN DISGUISE!! Im certain you are going to pull out an online guitar and start singing us motivational songs about price conditioning!!! lol lol ;D ;D
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Theres nothing in your services promotion to the customer Mark that isnt quite obvious to every cleaner on here to be honest.
I might have been wrong but the way you ramped up your previous posts suggesting you were going to explain something to us about sales I was hoping to have a blinding revelation of how to persuade customers to readily agree to purhase uPVC cleaning services that I'd failed to latch onto.
For me its: arrive ontime, appear smart/well turned out and appropriate bearing in mind the job we do, discuss the clients needs, assess pricing/time allowance/what I feel the job is worth, confirm their needs so Im sure I have that right, offer my price. They may say yes, they may say no on the spot. The may ring me, they may not.
Nothing more to it, think I said mostly this previously, we clean, we dont as Tony said elsewhere make bespoke furniture; I dont think I try to make out my services are in accordance with someone that does that; I'd hate to get a bad name for myself, a great deal of my work is through recomendation, through quality of work and pricing structure (VFM)
Matt
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Davo is not IMO conning people, he was explaining a sales patter.
I tend not to offer Upvc sealing as I dont want to go up ladders yes it is a great idea as a one-off clean maybe, cant ever see regular customers having that done each time if they would I would start offering that today and get more staff in to do it.
Cleaning the frames ect which I do with wfp is a bonus for them but I used it to put up prices and it went over from trad something like this.
We are now use wfp to clean your windows and for the next couple of months we will be cleaning all your frames free of charge (something we used to charge £35 upwards for)................2 months pass, would you like us to carry on cleaning frames is £2 extra but this includes the £1 price rise so really it will cost you a pound and cant cant be a bad deal can it...............not one has said it is a bad deal.
most sales is all a con you have to package it so they buy it you have toi get them to want to buy it so you change there mind tricking/conning/confusing the brain is what happens. "have you ever thoiught, why did I buY that" i know i have did i get tricked/confused I guess yes I did the sale of the item conned my mind. conning the mind against ripping people off is two different things IMO
I could have said I am charging £2 more from now on and cleaning frames, alot would have said dont worry about the frames which I have to do anyway I wanted to increase price so I packaged it a way I new would sell, i didnt rip them off as I was doing more work and alot cheaper than I did before.
I love Marketing, and sales gives me a buzz always has
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I won't do it for a tenner, but i will explain that it can be expensive because it is very hard work, uses a lot of my pure water and takes a fair bit of time. My customers seem fine with that. I have thought that if you get one gullable enough to want your five star treatment then he will be fascinated to see you polish the upvc too (with what?). In which case it's going to take you all day to clean it anyway with your various stages and final polish etc etc.
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To me that was all sales patter and just trying to convince the customer into spending money and getting the most money for the job
Getting as much for a job as possible is not a bad thing but their comes a point where it just becomes plain ridiculous to try charging inflated prices i trade on my quality of work reputation and pricing charging a fair price for the quality of job done if i started spouting that kind of sales talk i would be embarresed and quite frankly wouldn't believe myself and that would come over to the customer and they would feel i was trying to rip them off
I think as regards sales talk i will stick to my honest reputation to get the money i want i feel alot more comfortable with it
Dean
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what do you use to clean and seal ewen?
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davo how do you actually do the job if you get it for the top price?
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where do you get that from ewan?
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I was thinking again about Davos sales patter and it might be ok if you try it in a new area well away from home. Trouble is, in a small community where my round is based i've become friends with a lot of my customers who know me and my wife. There is no way i could use that patter on them or hike the price up to those levels. Soon as the husband comes home and works out your hourly rate he's likely to explode. I would lose everything.
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jdw....written down it looks like patter, but in real life its a conversation between two people. And I dont decieve the customer, thats not my way. If you read the script carefully its quite easy to justify every comment that you make. Quantify very busy, quantify value for money.
It is a very successful way for gaining business when done effortlessly, its something I do every day. In my particular business I dont have to consciously think about the sales process , as I said before its a conversation between two people.
The finishing chemical, is a cleaning agent which leaves a chemically bonded coating which helps to protect the UPVC from bird droppings, acid rain, colour fading from UV rays and the general pollutants in the atmosphere which may harm or dirty the UPVC. This chemical justifys a premium price as far as I am concerned.
Mark
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what is this chemical then?
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what is this chemical then?
Richyp, at his moment in time,Im not prepared to divulge what the actual chemical is called or who makes it. ( and "the boys" out there will be thinking...ah another load of tosh, I dont care, its my USP>)
The information will be made available to certain members of the forum in due course.
Mark
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ewan do you have a website!!
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what is this chemical then?
Richyp, at his moment in time,Im not prepared to divulge what the actual chemical is called or who makes it. ( and "the boys" out there will be thinking...ah another load of tosh, I dont care, its my USP>)
The information will be made available to certain members of the forum in due course.
Mark
fair play to you
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Yes we do think it's tosh I guarantee you use your fingers to make inverted comma signs and think nothing of it!
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Yes we do think it's tosh I guarantee you use your fingers to make inverted comma signs and think nothing of it!
What are you talking about you muppet?
Mark
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davo dont worry about it most people think when you talk about window cleaning has a "business" and command high prices and are succesful you talk crap, the person that counts knows the truth!!!
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I think this has been a good thread, a few different approaches to gaining & keeping work. It's often beneficial IMO to thrash out (so to speak) a few oppinions, then most people will be able to relate to one or the other. We could spend all day picking each others approaches apart but for me the main points are made.
Who's right between me & davo? both of us ;)
For davo with a background in sales & equiped with flawless sales patter with the ability for it to just roll off his tongue, then i dare to say he would be quite convincing to the customer. ;)
As for others, this could be a dangerous strategy. Get the patter wrong & it could well spell disaster leaving you with a red face & a ringing in your ear. :o
Sometimes it's a mix of marketing techniques, for me the davo style is more for one off jobs or less frequent/larger work & the macmac style for regular work, the work you need to rely on month in month out where customer loyalty & relations is paramount & will, on it's own create more work.
Think we've all put some good points across, IMO marketing (if you want to call it that) in this job is quite different to other trades/products for many reasons & that has to be born in mind when trying to make a living at this game.
Me & Davo obviousley don't see eye to eye on marketing 100%, However i have still taken elements of his posts that i may well use in the future, so, at least i have some benefit from this thread, which is what these little (soap operas ???) are good for.
Respect :-*
Tony
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I think this has been a good thread, a few different approaches to gaining & keeping work. It's often beneficial IMO to thrash out (so to speak) a few oppinions, then most people will be able to relate to one or the other. We could spend all day picking each others approaches apart but for me the main points are made.
Who's right between me & davo? both of us ;)
For davo with a background in sales & equiped with flawless sales patter with the ability for it to just roll off his tongue, then i dare to say he would be quite convincing to the customer. ;)
As for others, this could be a dangerous strategy. Get the patter wrong & it could well spell disaster leaving you with a red face & a ringing in your ear. :o
Sometimes it's a mix of marketing techniques, for me the davo style is more for one off jobs or less frequent/larger work & the macmac style for regular work, the work you need to rely on month in month out where customer loyalty & relations is paramount & will, on it's own create more work.
Think we've all put some good points across, IMO marketing (if you want to call it that) in this job is quite different to other trades/products for many reasons & that has to be born in mind when trying to make a living at this game.
Me & Davo obviousley don't see eye to eye on marketing 100%, However i have still taken elements of his posts that i may well use in the future, so, at least i have some benefit from this thread, which is what these little (soap operas ???) are good for.
Respect :-*
Tony
Good on you Tony for putting up this post, everyone is different and everyone can learn something of others a foolish person says I know every, a wise one will learn
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davo what is the process you go through to clean the conservatory roof im not asking for names of products but what you actually do when cleaning.
When i clean a conservatory roof i just use wfp and elbow grease on roofs which aren't too bad. On really dirty roofs i wet the roof with wfp then turn water down and appy detergent to the brush and scrub the whole roofwith detergent let it soak in then rinse with wfp and leave to dry naturally. ON pvc cleans i get the ladders out and wipe them clean with a wet scimamd the polish up with a dry scrim.
Im trying to understand what you do as from your comments about products i think you may do more than i do. I guess when you get a top price you apply your final polish and this needs to be done by hand rather than with a pole and requires a conservatory roof ladder and takes time to do which would justify a premium price.
I think arguements about price on this thread may be caused by some people talking about pvcu cleaning and you talking about cleaning and restoration which would result in a large price difference.
Ive had this conversation with a bloke in my area before who charges 120+ to clean facias with a water fed pole and it takes him a couple of hours and i don't believe his customers get value for money. I once was asked to quote for a facia clean and i gave them my price which i was unaware was less than half of his price did the job it took an hour and i made more than my usual hourly rate. He would have taken alot longer to do it but the end result would be no different to mine and would have cost the customer alot more. However if he was restoring and protecting the pvcu i would say it was good value but he wasn't.
so davo are you talking about pvcu restoration or cleaning?
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......... a bloke in my area before who charges 120+ to clean facias with a water fed pole and it takes him a couple of hours and i don't believe his customers get value for money.
The issue of value for money is very subjective, mainly because what represents value to one person may be too expensive or too cheap to another ( you can miss work because you are too cheap, they will percieve your service as somehow substandard). My initial thought on this competitor is that if he is doing 2 hours work for £120 and, when he's finished the job, it is to the standard as promised to the customer, then he's got it right.
In my opinion, on this type of work ( and for arguments sake say a window cleaner is earning £30 an hour) thinking in window cleaning rate terms is not the way to go,
ie well I'm normally on £30 Ill do it for £40 - £80 for 2 hours work.
What you charge has to be related to what the customer recieves for their money. Adding value to what you do ( in this instance putting a protective finish on cleaned PVCu) is worth more as a job and ultimately your hourly rate, than simply getting it clean.
This also, in my opinion, applies to existing customers. Its not window cleaning its a premium service. But you have to deliver what you promise to deliver.
so davo are you talking about pvcu restoration or cleaning?
Both, although, without sounding too nit pickey, they are the same thing. The customer has an option. It depends what they can afford, what their expectations are ( And very importantly the state of the PVCu - if the PVCu has failed ( gone yellow or pink) then you can restore that back to white, but not by cleaning or applying polishes etc. It has to be recoated with specialist paints( time consuming and a pain in the neck)
davo what is the process you go through to clean the conservatory roof im not asking for names of products but what you actually do when cleaning.
Traffic film remover as a presoaker, waterfed pole, Specialist Cleaner Paste for spot cleaning stubborn spots. Specialist Cleaning Solvent for really stubborn marks. Its then as clean as you are gonna get it.
Mark
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You probably know about the paint(I don't). But restoring the colour is easy, chemical £7 a tin plus elbow grease.
Most times you can spend time doing it and the custie doesn't even acknowledge you've done it. I can't remember what it was like? Yellow, a bit maybe..
So I tend not to waste my time.
I carry all the chemicals because my focus is on speed, and sometimes you get the new windows with adhesive on etc.
I don't like talking to the customers for too long either.I think you're ahead on points here Davo so I would quit this while you're ahead.
There is a lot I can't say but if you need any help with a basic plan i'm always willing to put my two pence in.
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You probably know about the paint(I don't). But restoring the colour is easy, chemical £7 a tin plus elbow grease.
Most times you can spend time doing it and the custie doesn't even acknowledge you've done it. I can't remember what it was like? Yellow, a bit maybe..
So I tend not to waste my time.
I carry all the chemicals because my focus is on speed, and sometimes you get the new windows with adhesive on etc.
I don't like talking to the customers for too long either.I think you're ahead on points here Davo so I would quit this while you're ahead.
There is a lot I can't say but if you need any help with a basic plan i'm always willing to put my two pence in.
Im not trying to win anything, just offering a different perspective.
PVCu cleaning is at a very early stage. Window cleaners have a huge advantage over other companies or individuals who offer this service..
They have a customer base, they have cash flow and they have most of the equipment, well the equipment which costs the money.
But thankyou for the offer of help. ooooo now hot PVCu cleaning, theres a thought....;)
Mark
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Okay. I'll pester ww then.
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Okay. I'll pester ww then.
go for it I like a challenge :P
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customers just like to see there investment £s looking like they did when they swallowed hard when the double glazing company .....using the term loosely here billed em for 1000,s . If you promise they are sealed and gonna reflect 99.9 % of uv rays and going to save the planet then you have cornered a niche market !
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If you've got a clue what i'm rambling on about Davo say so.
Yes Mr Sol. However to infer that they would be a part of a nationally recognise brand would, IMO, be missleading. That is unless you have the resources to spend ie the £100.000's needed to achieve that claim. Somone giving you £500 for the priveledge of using a brand name etc, wouldnt get you very far in any national marketing campaign. The major benefit that I can see, are the obvious economies of scale. The ability to target national contracts ( provided you have a national network). But I believe for every £500 member you recruited you would buy in £10,000 worth of aggravation.
Mark
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Fair enough. I took it down because of ww's non responce.
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Fair enough. I took it down because of ww's non responce.
put it back up was away back now ;)
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http://www.fargil.co.uk/index.html
There you go Davo, it's already out there- better get your skates on!
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http://www.fargil.co.uk/index.html
There you go Davo, it's already out there- better get your skates on!
Theyve been going a while DJW. This concept of applying a protective coating has been arround a while. Its finding something which is easy to apply, which I have found difficult to source.
But thanks for the link ( unless it was intended to show that Im not as smart as I think i am) in which case, Ill give you links to other companies if you like which offer a similar service.
Mark
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Not intended to show anything in particular, just found it whilst googling for a cleaner for conservatory roofs (tfr or something) and thought of your posts. I've posted my views somewhwere and have lost interest in the thread really, so nothing to squabble about. ;)
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I found it of interest. It's a higher level than I want to offer. I would look at car products for the wax/silicone.
Doing insides I feel i lose the system advantage.
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Mind you i'm not sure i'd let a blind valet into my house ???
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Not intended to show anything in particular, just found it whilst googling for a cleaner for conservatory roofs (tfr or something) and thought of your posts. I've posted my views somewhwere and have lost interest in the thread really, so nothing to squabble about. ;)
Thanx for the link DJW.
Mark
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one of the wc basics is the concept of repeat biz- and also probably- that we are local to an area.
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Mind you i'm not sure i'd let a blind valet into my house ???
is this discrimination LOL :D :D
great thead by the way
mike
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If there is one on here that i've missed (can't be sure) then i apologise now.