Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dave Turley on May 17, 2007, 08:17:16 pm
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hi guys. i'm keen to build a diy hot water system and would appreciate any ideas.
my current round is all close to home, so i don't think a calorifier would be of much use to me, as it wouldn't have time to heat the water.
i think propane heaters would work out expensive on gas, maybe red diesel would be better.
i have three specific questions as well.........
does hot water mean considerably less scrubbing? some months my windows take alot of scrubbing to remove dirt particles (the ones you can see on hydrophobic windows)
what temperatures do most hot systems run at?
is there a risk of cracking glass with hot water in the winter? if so, what is the maximum temperature which is considered to be safe
many thanks for all replies :)
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i bought a caravan water heater from local caravan store fairly easy to cobble together in back of van warm water for winter but cools down so fast i think it is just a gimmick makes hoses more flexible in icy weather nice to warm your kneck with too if you drap around yourself. i think that tucker stated problems if you heat deionised can't remember why. we used to run it for first couple of hours in cold because usually a cold start gets warm later in the day. we now run immersion on storage tank as a lot simpler and once its cooled down on van, weather for day warm hope that helps.
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Certain maufacturers have said in the past that by heating pure water it can cause the tds in the water to rise,something to do with the oxygen in the water.
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Heating water doesn't cause the TDS to rise but it can possibly change the water ph level to a slightly acidic level when it passes through D.I. resin. That's what 'Tucker' systems was on about.
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So if its more acidic is that better on hphopic glass or worse ?
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If the water is slightly acidic then basically it will speed up the paint removal on some metal frames with a certain type of paint coating owing to oxidisation caused by a combination of the sun's UV rays and the di water. In all honesty it's so minimum it makes sweet F.Adams difference. The water cleans the window no different to using cold water. The only difference using the hot water is that it removes debris so much quicker with minimum of scrubbing because the water is less dense and 'sheets' easier. I use warm, hot water simply because a lot of my work is on the coast where seagulls show their works of art and because of the salt carried in the wind.
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thanks for responses and apologies for delay.
can anyone offer any opinions on the 3 specific questions though as iim trying to weigh up if it's worth doing.
i'm struggling with scrubbing dirt particles off the glass following splells of rain
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What brush are you using.
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What brush are you using.
just what i was thinking, i cant see how you could possibly struggle to remove dirt particles only by which have been put there by rain ???
try a new brush & turn up your flow a little.
tony
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sorry for delay, been dead busy
i'm using a vikan 47552 flocked, and have also used the 47553 mona vikan from varitech.
the particles are easier to see the more aquaphobic the windows are. they are there on all of my windows accross my round.
there can be hardly any, then when it rains heavy, especially with some wind they are there again. it can honestly take me as much as twice as long as normal to clean a house some months!
the aspect of the side of the house makes a great difference.... some days all the windows on one side of a row of houses will be virtually clean, whilst the other side are filthy with particles which take a fair bit of scrubbing and sometimes gg3 to get the window sparkling!
i've tried just ignoring them but after a couple of cleans the windows look dirty when they've dried
hence me thinking maybe it's pollution or something and hot water would help
oh i don't live by the sea or a quarry. based in wolverhampton :)
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It's hard to picture what you are explaining dave, i cant think that i've ever come across this. its a long shot but is there any possibilty that the glass could be mineral stained?
tony
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no, i get rid of the particles every month, in the height of summer i may not see them for a few months, but if we have some wind and rain they are there again. this is on nearly all the windows on my round.
you know when you do a very hydrophobic window and the water all just jumps straight off the window when the window is very clean; well these particles show up as tiny dots of water. as you scrub the glass with the brush, you can see these tiny dots ofwater which are stuck to the glass becoing less and less prevelent, until after a bit more scrubbing they are gone.
i've tried turning my flow up to 4litres/min. this makes no difference at all, just makes them harder to see as you're scrubbing :'( :'( :'(
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no, i get rid of the particles every month, in the height of summer i may not see them for a few months, but if we have some wind and rain they are there again. this is on nearly all the windows on my round.
you know when you do a very hydrophobic window and the water all just jumps straight off the window when the window is very clean; well these particles show up as tiny dots of water. as you scrub the glass with the brush, you can see these tiny dots ofwater which are stuck to the glass becoing less and less prevelent, until after a bit more scrubbing they are gone.
i've tried turning my flow up to 4litres/min. this makes no difference at all, just makes them harder to see as you're scrubbing :'( :'( :'(
Are you using a 'monofilament' brush because 'flocked' (i.e. the old 'Vikan' and Bentley) brush heads trap the dirt in the bristles. Tucker and Carbon Tec brushes are good monofilament brush heads that don't trap the dirt on the bristles.
If you decide to use hot water then the water will be less dense, dry much quicker and also shift stubborn marks much quicker than cold water.
If you go for gas Hot water system to heat your water then you have to make sure your gas bottle is secured well and truly whilst your van is on the move and your heater has to have adequate ventilation and more than likely a flue/ventilation fitted to your van. Also you have to display the appropiate hazmat sticker on your van in case of a fire.
It's better to go for a diesel heater like webasto or eberspacher as it is safer and less hassle.
I live in Devon and if you're ever down this way than you are welcome to have a look at how I have mine set up.
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sorry dave, if i miss understand you, if you clean these windows on a regular basis, why would you need gg3 to make them shine, on your first cleans yes, but why use it after their done, could that not be the problem, using gg3 and maybe its not being rinsed enough, the whole point of wfp window cleaning is using nothing but 100% pure water,
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is hot water all that good? i know in the cold weather when i was all frozen up it wouldve been handy, but i know a guy round here whos got the ionics setup and he hardly uses the hot water...
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is hot water all that good? i know in the cold weather when i was all frozen up it wouldve been handy, but i know a guy round here whos got the ionics setup and he hardly uses the hot water...
He's a fool to himself then if he's got hot water and chooses to use cold!Much quicker, definitely! Also you can get away with hot water better in the rain/showers because it dries so much quicker.
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I recon its the rubbish from Bank's blowing about. ;D
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Get some pure water.
Check the TDS is 000
Boil the water
Check the TDS
I bet it has risen to anywhere between 8-14 TDS
Hot water systems leave spots
End of story.
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Get some pure water.
Check the TDS is 000
Boil the water
Check the TDS
I bet it has risen to anywhere between 8-14 TDS
Hot water systems leave spots
End of story.
Don't doubt you! There is a metal element in a kettle. Maybe that's why it rises?
If it was 14ppm after heated could you not run it through di to take it back down to 000ppm?
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Boil it in a stainless steel pan - over gas.
I did this last night and some 'pure' water at 000TDS rose to 15TDS while heating up, and then cooled down read 008TDS.
It's not the stainless steel causing the rise - it has to be a chemical reaction of some sort.
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what a load of b******s guys i have a Thermopure the water that is heated
to 45 degrees is still 000 tds when it comes out the brush
Do you really think Ionics would sell them if they didn`t work
If you want pics no problem but still 000 hot or cold but the hot makes the job
quicker without a doubt I mean would you have a cold shower and would it get all the grease of I think not hot is just a nicer thing but when it comes to soil and
first cleans dirty cons roofs it just works so much quicker Edd
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Get some pure water.
Check the TDS is 000
Boil the water
Check the TDS
I bet it has risen to anywhere between 8-14 TDS
Hot water systems leave spots
End of story.
CRAP!
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what a load of b******s guys i have a Thermopure the water that is heated
to 45 degrees is still 000 tds when it comes out the brush
Do you really think Ionics would sell them if they didn`t work
If you want pics no problem but still 000 hot or cold but the hot makes the job
quicker without a doubt I mean would you have a cold shower and would it get all the grease of I think not hot is just a nicer thing but when it comes to soil and
first cleans dirty cons roofs it just works so much quicker Edd
It's all very well saying that hot water 'cleans', and all that guff about cold showers etc., but you don't know what rubbish is left on your skin, do you?
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CRAP!
I like your argument - completely structured, well thought out and succintly delivered. You have converted me!
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V8ED, i do domestics, would it be any good for me, and ballpark what would it cost (ionics)?
I've got all the wfp etc, just a bare ionics hot system for my van.
And then what might the extra running costs be?
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CRAP!
I like your argument - completely structured, well thought out and succintly delivered. You have converted me!
Sorry my argument was not constructive. It's Friday and I've just crammed 3 days work into 1 very long, 'bat out of hell, go for it' day today so pretty knackered to say the least. Next time I'll be more helpful ;D
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Boil it in a stainless steel pan - over gas.
I did this last night and some 'pure' water at 000TDS rose to 15TDS while heating up, and then cooled down read 008TDS.
It's not the stainless steel causing the rise - it has to be a chemical reaction of some sort.
dont think the water is actualy boiled, its just heated to the right temprature,
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I doubt these 'hot machines' heat to boiling point anyway - very wasteful and could hurt yourself with very hot water flying all over the place.
Does anyone know what temperature the water needs to be to be effective? I wold think that simply being 'warm' would help.
But I'm still worried about the TDS rising with heating.
Don't worry about the 'crap' thing - I talk and write crap myelf often enough! :)
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The diesel heaters raise the water temperature to 80degrees Celsius which is far too hot to use on some glass. The way around it is to recycle the water around your tank to a more suitable 25 to 45 degrees. The larger your WFP tank, the longer it takes to reach a certain temperature but at the same time the larger the tank the longer it will remain at that temperature. It pays to insulate the WFP tank so that the diesel heater isn't running for so long and to also retain the heat better. My WFP tank is insulated 7 times better than my boiler at home. If I heat my water to hot then 24 hours later it will still be warm. I also have a calorifier tank which keeps very hot water very hot for 24hours as it loses very little heat at all.
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and you don't get aproblem with spotting/smearing etc.?
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What about in the winter when it`s very cold,putting hot water on very cold glass would cause it to crack the glass i would think, you`ve seen the bloke next door that comes out on a cold winters morning and tips a kettle of hot water on his windscreen ouch!
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COLD works well
why use HOT
i knwo the arguement of " its great for first cleans" so it cleaning the windows TWICE for first cleans, i have no1 complain about that
afterall isnt a CLEAN window a CLEAN window if its down with hot, cold, warm, tepid ( you get the picture ) water
imho just another reason to sell another system to you
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crikey, this topic's livened up since i last was here.......
i've decided that i'm just being way too fussy. the last few days i've been whizzing over the windows with a good flow on, and ignored the tiny particle dots which hold the tiny dots of water.......... checked the windows on my collections and guess what.... they're perfect, every one. now i'm earning half as much again!!! ;D
i think i'd oversensitised myself to taking notice of these particles when we had all that windy rainy weather over last winter. they left all the windows in a real state which took alot of scrubbing to get clean.
i'm still interested in building a hot system at an affordable price. easyclean, thanks for the offer, i may well pop and see you over the summer!! ;)
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What about in the winter when it`s very cold,putting hot water on very cold glass would cause it to crack the glass i would think, you`ve seen the bloke next door that comes out on a cold winters morning and tips a kettle of hot water on his windscreen ouch!
I believe that the glass in winter times is warmer than in the summer due to the fact that the house will probably have the central heating on. You'd have to be very unlucky to break a pane. Again, even less likely if the water is not VERY hot but just very warm.
Matt, I don't think this is a great way to sell hot systems, as if you can get a way to take heat from the vehicle's exhaust/engine then you could use that heat to warm the water.
I just need convincing that hot/warm water does not leave spots/cause the tds to rise, that's all. I wouldn't buy from a supplier a hot system - I would make it myself. What about putting an immersion heating element into the tank and plug in where you can - at home over night, with a thermostat to keep the temperature down. If any of your customers havean outside power point, you could, with permission, plug into their mains.
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hot water does not rise the tds
hot water in winter will crack windows if not kept under 30 degs I know
wabasto uk sell heaters for about £1000.00
ionics machine with van £26000.00
happy cleaning guys it works for me hot or cold
BUT hot or warm is quicker NO doult about it
its up to you how much money extra you want I want loads too pay for the Ionics gear ha ha ;D
any questions on diy please ask Edd
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Did you pay £26000 was that +vat,if you don`t mind me asking how much a month.
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Edd, wfp is quicker than trad (generally) so how much quicker than cold wfp is hot or warm?
What counts as 'hot'? Anything over 30 degrees?
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What did you pay Edd, not 26k surely?
And you didn't metion running costs.
Do you always turn it on, are there some days you don't bother, is there any benefit for domestic from the marketing point of view?
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I have a Thermopure.
There's youre answrr Eco. £26K!
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I would like to see someone put up a good argument for a hot system. I have seen several similar threads and none have been very convincing. There would seem to be three claimed benefits.
1. Marketing advantage. You can obtain an lead in geting big commercial jobs especially with cutting edge of high tech firms.
2.Technical superiority. A cleaner clean in less time, especially on dirtier jobs or first cleans.
3,More professional working method, that marries with the man in the streets perception of what should be used to clean windows.(if you can't have soap, then hot water would seem obvious).
However, either these arguments are not true, or none of the champions of this method are adticulate enought to expound them.
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Why do the majority of traditional window cleaners fill there buckets with hot water and not cold water in the mornings before setting off to work?
Why do housewives and some househusbands fill a kitchen sink with hot water and not cold water to wash the greasy cooking utensils, pots, pans, plates, etc?
Why do people choose to shower/bath in hot water not cold water?
Why do some professional cleaners use steam as a means of cleaning, sanitising work surfaces, kitchen appliances, etc?
Why is it that hot water will shift stubborn dirt easier than cold water?
Is it personal choice or is it that hot water really does outperform cold water when it comes to cleaning?
I don't use hot/warm water to impress any of my customers (domestic or commercial).
I choose to use hot/warm water because I can shift stubborn marks easier with minimal of physical effort because I suffer from chronic arthritus. I also use it because I can clean faster with it thus earning me more money or a shorter working day. Lastly I use it because the water is less dense, therefore it dries quicker which minimises any chance of any complaints when it's been raining all day if I choose to work in the rain.
Why do you choose to use cold water for cleaning windows with the waterfed pole method?
Have you ever tried a hot WFP system?
How can you criticise hot WFP systems until you've tried one for yourself?
Carry on using cold WFP systems. I will carry on using hot/warm WFP for cleaning windows, initial cleans, cladding, soffits, fascias, etc.
All WFP users need a vehicle to transport their water so why not look at fitting a large calorifier tank into your vehicle and draw the heat from your engine that would normally be dispersed (wasted) through the radiator. Most engines circulate the water around the engine block at a constant 80-85degrees Celsius. If it was re-circulated through the calorifier tank and then re-circulated indirectly back into the WFP tank then you would be making full use of the wasted heat. It's a one off expense with no additional running costs. I'm very surprised no one else has tapped into this DIY market.
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All WFP users need a vehicle to transport their water so why not look at fitting a large calorifier tank into your vehicle and draw the heat from your engine that would normally be dispersed (wasted) through the radiator. Most engines circulate the water around the engine block at a constant 80-85degrees Celsius. If it was re-circulated through the calorifier tank and then re-circulated indirectly back into the WFP tank then you would be making full use of the wasted heat. It's a one off expense with no additional running costs. I'm very surprised no one else has tapped into this DIY market.
this was discussed on the DIY forum a while back, im not sure waht happened to it
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Easyclean, are the standard plastic tanks suitable for holding warmed/hot water? If not, the tanks might bend out of shape or even burst at the welded seams, I think people should be careful about heating water in a plastic tank. Or maybe the temperature of the water is effective on the glass, and doesn't need to be at boiling point?
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...and one other thing, I think people realsie that warm/hot water cleans better thancold, biut I think people here are a bit sceptical about the temperature of the water once it gets to the glass - it must cool down in the tube on the way up there.
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Easyclean, are the standard plastic tanks suitable for holding warmed/hot water? If not, the tanks might bend out of shape or even burst at the welded seams, I think people should be careful about heating water in a plastic tank. Or maybe the temperature of the water is effective on the glass, and doesn't need to be at boiling point?
The polypropylene tanks are okay for storing hot water so long as it's not very hot. They do slowly bend out of shape if you're storing water that is too hot. Haven't had one leak on the seams yet. When they get too distorted I take them out of the stainless steel frame and use them as storage tanks for purifying my water at home. I change my tank roughly once every 2 years. I may invest in a better tank i.e. a stainless steel one at a later date when I have the funds. I have temperature gauges fitted at the tank input & output and at my hosereel to make sure my water is never too hot.
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Easyclean, is there one temperature that you aim for for most general w/c cleaning? Or are you happy with a range of temepratures.
I have something that might interest you.
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Easyclean, is there one temperature that you aim for for most general w/c cleaning? Or are you happy with a range of temepratures.
I have something that might interest you.
In the winter I use caution and try to keep the water at 25-30 degrees but in the summer I'll go as high as 45 degrees. It all depends on whether I'm cleaning really old buildings/houses with old glass or new properties with UPVC double glazing. One of my customers is a 150 year old listed building with single glazed windows that are the originals. They are as thin as paper, none of them leak but I wouldn't dream of using anything but 'tepid' water on them. You kind of pick up a sixth sense of how hot to go with regards to cleaning windows through experience.
I'm interested to know what you have that might interest me? Tell me more.
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I'll send you an interesting email that might interest you.
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I think easyclean has said it all really but the customers love seeing all that
steamey hot water runing down the windows which does dry a lot quicker
so less time to get contaminated you see , its easyier on you aswell but
£612.00 a month still takes some earning
realistly we could possiblly do one house an hour more with hot than cold
on average about £40.00 a day more so I think its worth the extra cost
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I just want to add that we hear about warm/hot weather causing us wfpers with problems with spots.
The advice in such conditions to use more water to rinse.
Therefore, if you use a hot water system, in any weather conditions, does this not run the risk of spotting?
If not, then perhaps all the hoo harr about hot weather and spotting is just that - hoo harr.
?
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the only time we`ve had spots is when the water wasn`t pure like
15tds because the resin was spent nothing to do with hot or cold
we only try to work when its dry anyway but the rain if not to hard
will not make any differance and if your brush isn`t clean it will spot
So nice clean brush , plenty of rinse hot or cold and clean windows
should not be a problem
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I was surprised to find this post on the 2nd page considering the last post was June 2007??????
For anyone who's interested, I've been using hot (46 degrees C) for 2 years now and it's the best move I've made since going wfp 4 years ago.
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did you diy it or buy it dave.
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Hiya, diy gas caravan boiler with a thermostatic mixer valve.
I might go diesel next year with a new van.
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ive got the L5 gas shower rigged up it cost me
£120 inc tax roughly to ship from the states
only heats the water i use, i also refill my gas bottles with auto gas so running costs is no more than a fiver a week
it is nicer to work with because hoses kink less , snail trails insect and pird poo lift quicker, when rinsing water sheets better.
people often comment on the steam when working so its a good sales tool .
i find it quicker because it seems to work well with a little less rinsing, dont know why maybe vecause its less dense
i couldnt stomach the cost of all the other options the money i saved setting it up would pay my gas bill for 20 years
its a no brainer.
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hi guys. i'm keen to build a diy hot water system and would appreciate any ideas.
my current round is all close to home, so i don't think a calorifier would be of much use to me, as it wouldn't have time to heat the water.
i think propane heaters would work out expensive on gas, maybe red diesel would be better.
i have three specific questions as well.........
does hot water mean considerably less scrubbing? some months my windows take alot of scrubbing to remove dirt particles (the ones you can see on hydrophobic windows)
what temperatures do most hot systems run at?
is there a risk of cracking glass with hot water in the winter? if so, what is the maximum temperature which is considered to be safe
many thanks for all replies :)
Dave when I clik your web site, it says that you use hot water ::)