Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: poleman on June 25, 2004, 03:02:53 am
-
Just thought i would let every one know about the Temporary Working At Height Directive, my office manager phoned the house of commons information office and they put him thought to the London Euro info centre and i have enclosed the email that they replyed with hope it is of any help to any one.
Andy
Dear John,
Thank you for contacting the London Euro Info Centre.
Further to our telephone conversation, please find below the link to the EU Directive 2001/45 on 'the minimum safety and health requirements for the use of work equipment by workers at work':
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2001/l_195/l_19520010719en00460049.pdf
This Directive is to be implemented in the UK Law and the proposed date for Regulations to come into force is 19 July 2004. You can find this information on 'Euronews', the journal of HSE (p.13):
http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/europe/apr04.pdf
I hope this information proves helpful. Please do not hesitate to contact me again if I can be of further assistance.
Best regards,
Marion
Marion CUGNET
European Information Assistant
Euro Info Centre
London Chamber of Commerce and Industry
33 Queen Street
London, EC4R 1AP
Tel +44 (0) 20 7203 1914
Fax +44 (0) 20 7203 1812
mcugnet@londonchamber.co.uk
www.londonchamber.co.uk
The Euro Info Centre (EIC) in London provides information on European Union issues including legislation, funding, public sector tenders and business opportunities in Europe. Visit our website at www.londonchamber.co.uk/europe
New Grantfinder service now available. Grantfinder can help you locate 4,000 plus grants that may be suitable for your company. Contact us on europe@londonchamber.co.uk
-
Thanks for that one Andy, the consultation document itself just gives "2004" as the coming into force date.
-Philip
-
Hi Philip
IT would seam that the Directive comes Law on the 19 July 04, however i have not had time to look at ever thing as the summer holidays coming up ever shcool wonts there windows cleaned.
Will see you on the 28 july BWCA have copys of you on sky news, on CD in DVD and MPEG format and i dont wont any money for them ;)
Andy
-
What is the EU directive?
-
I can't open the link so can you tell us in lay-mans terms not euro speak :o what the height restrictions are. ;D
-
LINK FIX,
well you must be new here?
WINDOW CLEANING IS CHANGING
THE BELOW has been copy from our Moderator, posted in march of this year, hope you dont mind philip ;)
As I'm sure most will have heard by now, the UK will soon adopt European Directive 2001/45/EC also known as the Temporary Work at Height Directive.
We have discussed its impact on the window cleaning industry in general, noting that broadly speaking, later this year the use of Unsecured Ladders for window cleaning will be against the law.
(A number of other EU member states have gone even further, for example the Dutch government have banned the use of ladders completely, even for "Access")
Even though this causes us some inconvenience, lets not forget the reason for these laws in the first place. About 10 window cleaners die every year in the UK, and many more are seriously injured. That is a terrible safety record for any industry! Imagine if a large company was killing 10 of its workers every year due to unsafe working practices in its factories- there would be an urgent enquiry, the company shut down and the directors jailed. People would be outraged, and rightly so.
lets not make the mistake of thinking these laws won't be policed - they will. And if you get caught, the HSE wont hesitate to prosecute.
Here is a link to NFMW&GC web site regarding the use of ladders.
http://www.nfmwgc.com/homepgs/hela.htm
make the change it could save your life, I have, I clean my windows with a water fed pole system, its the future of window cleaning.
Andy
-
I don't mind.
Remember that this is simply my interpretation of the new regulations, and some have strongly disagreed with me. Read the whole thread here:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Equipment;action=display;num=1080679821
But more importantly, read the proposed regulations for yourself here:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf
Note especially that window cleaning with pole systems instead of ladders is specifically mentioned on pade 68 and pade 116 paragraph 47
This is a contraversial issue, so I dont want to make any further comment really. My best advice is to read the document for yourself and decide on the best course of action. Act quickly though, the new regs come into force in a few months time and you could be prosecuted if you break them. (Not to mention you'll be uninsured)
-Philip
PS I will give you that Money Andy! I owe it to you!
-
well I'm new here, been cleaning windows for the best part of 20 years but only found this site yesterday, and had heard rumers of the directive but seen nothing concrete, Even today I read the most recent stuff from HSE with only little talk of this directive, and NOTHING about stopping us using ladders for our trade, but lots of sencible advice as to there use, so I'll read throu this stuff from your link (thanks) and see if it makes any sence, I wonder if it is sponcered by WFP companys? There still seems to be a load of draw backs with the use of these things apart from the expence, I can see some good reasons to swop but there are also some negatives,
-
hi CS,
I converted 2 months ago best thing i ever did.
just had to say!!!! ;D
paul
-
Regaring safety at work, i found out today a Hospital that i qouted and did not get as they went for a cheap qoute, the window cleaning that was doing them fell of his ladder and die, god rest is sole.
Andy
-
so I'll read throu this stuff from your link (thanks) and see if it makes any sence, I wonder if it is sponcered by WFP companys?
The link is to the HSE's own website, its not sponsored by a commercial supplier. There is not much information available yet other than the consultation document, but this contains the draft legislation.
Again, my advice is to read this document - especially the Draft regulations on pages 30-54 and the draft guidance to those regulations on pages 56-106.
Here is the link again, notice the web adress is part of the HSE website (The HSE [Health and Safety Executive] is the government body responsible for making and enforcing laws to do with health and safety. It is they who are proposing the new laws as required by the European Directive)
http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf
Its dry reading, but do persevere with it. It helps to actually print it out and read it that way.
Regaring safety at work, i found out today a Hospital that i qouted and did not get as they went for a cheap qoute, the window cleaning that was doing them fell of his ladder and die, god rest is sole.
Andy
A tragedy that. We've all had near misses no doubt, 10 die every year in our trade from falls at height.
-Philip
-
Just thought i would pop this little beauty in for your appraisal. Whilst removing tapes and stickers off new windows for a major house building company the H&S gentleman paid a visit to the site.. On seeing me up a ladder the guy came over and politely asked me to get off the ladder ( I had the ladder footed ). In the conversation which followed i was informed i should use a cherry picker or erect scaffolding to do that type of work in future. I asked about the cleaning of the windows and it was the same answer... So now if i use a ladder and a accident occurs i am not covered.. as he told me not to use ladders.. On contacting the companies head office i was informed that there is a h&s issue with the use of ladders on sites which is going to cost them £1000's, they told me not to use ladders and if possible reach out from inside and do my best that way :-/ :-/ . So as far as i am concerned this directive must be in force now..
Steve
-
Just spoke? to the HSE up here in Leeds she said the directive wont be comming into force untill October, and they are not sure until then what it will actualy say, But she did say from her reading of the information available that it was only giving advice regarding other options open to window cleaners as in the past ladder work has mainly been dealt with from a building site perspective, and window cleaners have a compleatly different work pattern to the building industry, She didnt think it would alter the way the HSE look at us, and its not such a big issue as folks are makeing out!! These arnt "quotes" just as Im now over 50 and cant remember what happened 1/2 an hour ago! so its just the rough outline of what she said. I dare say someone will now shoot me down in flames!
-
I think that different councils will enforce the directive as they see fit and "tough luck" be to us. ???
-
I can see a sharp rise in costs, contracts if H&S advisors are using this method.
Iam a health and safety advisor and run a cleaning company
I would not Advise anyone or anybody to hang out of a window and reach to clean a window.
Safety first job later: If you cant do it safely dont do it at alll
surely its common sense to have a firm footing on a ladder
if you are hanging out of a window with one hand on the frame you cannot do the job properly.
Billy Smart acrobats were not professional cleaners sometimes:D 8)
-
CS_Win,
thought it was just me,
can't remember why ;D
-
Its because you stay up to late playing on the PC! ::)
-
Hi all
Read bits of the report
Check out page 125 par 85 as they approuched 3 window cleaning companies funny no one used traditional methods,none used double A-Frames (which could be useless when this comes in)
This is not good for the industry
Alan
-
If this comes into force on the 19th July 2004, will window cleaners still be able to get insurance for using ladders?
Lee
-
I'm not sure how insurance companies will deal with us, or what cop out clauses they will now add to their policies (along I am sure with myriad other clauses) but you can be sure they will do so.
I rarely use ladders now as I am a WFP user, but they are needed on some occasions.
I don't think that window cleaners on domestic accounts will be much affected, unless of course you have to make a claim on your insurance.
Those of us doing mostly commercial premises will be most at risk. IF you are working on schools or office complexes, high streets and so on you can be sure that what has to be rigidly adhered to on building sites will begin to be reflected more and more outside of those sites.
The one thing you can be sure of is that as time passes it WILL get harder and harder to use ladders.
Won't happen overnight of course, it will be a drip, drip thing...........a bit like having a wet rawhide strap around your neck and then going out in the sun.......... :o
Ian
-
What peeves me off is that i am not allowed to use ladders to clean the windows as i am contracted to the builder. ( PLumbers and other trades have also been banned from using ladders ) But a window cleaner can come onto the site and clean occupied houses with a ladder........ Slightly unfair..
Regards
Steve
-
http://www.croner.co.uk/cgi-bin/croner/jsp/Editorial.do?cache=true&channelId=-48051&contentId=104065&feed=agim
Andy
-
Ah well at least i can still go mountaineering ;D ;D
Steve
-
Steve, they are talking about mountaineering as well.
The guy that climbed Everest has recently made a comment about our becoming a Nanny State.
-
The worst possible situation is to have total confusion ( which is what is happening now) and different people in Authority telling us widely differing things.
I can forsee a situation where some Authorities will persue window cleaners like criminals while others couldn't care less.
Even years from now this is going to be bouncing around and people on this website will be complaining about other cleaners undercutting them by using "illegal" practices and asking for clarification on this point or that point of law.
Its not only us thats affected. How are the TV aerial blokes going to do their job?
-
hi i too am new to this site and have been reading with intrest. i also have been considering investing in a pole but feel i will also need a bigger van , so will take time to finance. i have of course noted guys useing these systems and have noticed that they have hose pipes running across public footpaths and over roads how does that hang as regards the public tripping over them as i have seen none with signs also saw one the other day walk backwards on to the road and nearly get run over. Think i am safer on a ladder, sorry if this ground has been covered but as i say first time user. ps excellent site cheers Paul
-
WFP Systems as recommended by the HEALTH & SAFETY EXECUTIVE.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/campaigns/worksmart2/videos/wah9.wmv
-
Excellent video clip there from the HSE's own website.
Thanks very much Andy for posting it here. Very relevant. I'd recommend everyone watch it (Its only 45 secs long)
-Philip
-
hmm...had a look, but no sound....it's essential for us as domestic window cleaners to be able to use both methods...we have customers who don't like the pole method, and places where we cant get a pole to the job.I don't know how any of you cope where the access to the rear is through the house, we currently carry the ladders through. Customers are not too happy about leaky pipe work and water trolleys being taken through the house.....wet carpets and all.......so it's very much a case of mix and match... :-/
-
I have a long hose reel and I leave the trolly out front. I have a demand feed pump so I take the hose through the letterbox and right through to the back garden so that both ends are outside the house. I have a hozelock connector which stops the flow when it's not connected to the pole. Then I turn on the pump and there is no danger of the house getting soaked inside as both ends are outside.
The only problem is that the back door is open a little for the hose to go through and if there are windows directly above the door I have to leave a cloth in the crack to absorb any water that might splash down.
Colin
-
hi there,
i had a meeting last week, with abuilding company and have spoken to several over the past few weeks, this ladder issue, is affecting absolutely everybody, it sems that the only people that will benefit, will be the cherry picker, scaffolding and ally tower boys.
so maybe we should get into that market.
martin
-
it sems that the only people that will benefit, will be the cherry picker, scaffolding and ally tower boys.
Let's not lose sight of the reason for the new laws. 10 deaths a year from working from ladders. Surely WE will benefit by being less likely to be killed or injured.
I welcome the new regulations. Anything that makes our industry safer must be promoted.
There's no doubt that these regs will save lives.
-Philip
-
YES I agree was the best business move I made... go to work knowing I'm SAFE, allmost twice as fast as ladder work AND you can go for bigger JOBS, get a WFP System could save your life.
ANDY
-
maybe we should ban driving cars cars lorries stairs trains wars crossing the road fires cooking lakes the maybe the world would be a safer place to live in.
-
it depends on what type of work u r doing poleman
-
maybe the world would be a safer place to live in.
Geoffrey,
Even if you stay in bed all day, you'll get bed sores - nowhere's safe these days!
-
it depends on what type of work u r doing poleman
do you mean ladder work? if so have you read the WAHD? I'm now getting work from ladder window cleaners as companys know WAHD is coming in this year and they dont wont to be prosecuted and they are not going to pay out for eye bolts to be fitted at great cost to them.
Andy
-
still doing council cotracts with ladders i wonder if they wil be prosicuted poleman
-
poleman where does it say u r not allowed to use ladders for window cleaning in the eu directive
-
Been following this thread with some interest. Have printed out and perused a copy of the directive and notice that in several places it talks about use of ladders being permitted only if "safer work equipment is not justified". Who decides whether it is justified? Also point 4.1.6 talks about the influence of weather on work at height. What constitutes dangerous weather?
I spoke to my insurance brokers yesterday about this because most of my work (85%) is done with WFP but if I'm not insured on the other 15% it's going to be dropped or rethought. They have not heard of this directive and assured me that if my insurance was affected I would be notified by my insurance company. I'm not sure that I want to take the risk!
Any further updates?
-
ken,
as a matter of interest who do you have your insurance with, and what height does it cover for ladder work.
thanks
the problem with most of these directives and govt notices, is that they are open to differnet interpretation by differing regiond and bodies.
what one safety officer thinks is ok, may be completely disagreed with by another safety officer.
regards
martin
-
I'm insured through Academy Insurance in Mold. If memory serves I'm covered up to 11m! I think that is over the HSE recommendation. Fat chance of me working that high off a ladder, I'd have to bolt my 2 together!
-
Hello all
I emailed hse the other day and they told me the new law is in a consulation period and the law will be finalized in november and will be inforce at the end of the year, what the law will be exactely has yet to be decided.
Its all to much of a grey area, this is our lively hood, if we knew the laws we could plan.
scrimit2