Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Andrews_Water on April 26, 2004, 11:06:05 pm
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As a new boy to your forum, (and a supplier at that ! ) I’ll try not to promote our products. Reading the posts on your forum, and talking to some of you on our POLECLEAN stand at Hinckley on Saturday, there are a number of FAQs on water fed poles. It strikes me that there’s a need for a series of inexpensive training days to be run around the country for the uninitiated, addressing such wfp topics as:-
How does it work ? What sort of system do I need ? What special technique is there in using a pole system ? What should I charge ? How do I market the idea to my customers ?
Please can I have some feedback on the possible interest in a series of low cost (say £95 + VAT) training sessions, limited to half a dozen people or so, including a worthwhile lunch, run at different venues around the country ? In addition to a not-too-technical explanation of terms such as RO, demin & TDS, and how water purification works, we propose to offer hands-on experience in the use of aluminium and fibreglass poles in real life situations. Attendance would enable participants to benefit from the many mistakes that we have made during the last few years, whilst gaining considerable experience in the use of wfp.
Your reaction is awaited with interest. Thanks. Andrew Greenhalgh
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Hi Andrew
I think Ionnics are doing that , as the window cleaning academy if you look at the bottom of the cleanitup home page you will see a list of dates and its on there July 13th /14th
John
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Thanks for that, John.
I believe that there is a need for more than one such training course, not necessarily centred in the South West, and not necessarily run by the market leader. With the best will in the world, any supplier of equipment (ourselves included) will be tempted to present a biased view. We know we're less biased than most !
Yours, Andrew
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Hi Andrew
Southport would be ok for me ,
John
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Thanks John - you're the first on the list ! Andrew
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I would like to know more about these proposed courses, and what sort of itinery or training you would offer as oposed to what Craig is offering. A recognised certificate in association with H&S would be fab, but as all these courses are relatively new, I would bide my time to pick and choose the course that offered me the most experience in its field!
Blackpool would be O.K. for me, but as and when I don't know yet (Sure John would prefer that).
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I would be interested, what about Birmingham ;D
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Wot about Louth Lincs..................
Infact My house.............
I'll provide the Tea??
David Salkeld
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Karl
Blackpool would be good ,but Fleetwood be better
John
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The BWCA has plans to roll out British Window Cleaning Academy certified courses across the UK at various locations. The BWCA is nothing new, established as it was in 1997 to deliver the NVQ. BWCA training is not an Ionic Systems venture and so attendees can expect to see waterfed poles from other leading manufacturers used in a positive way within the training in order to highlight their correct usage in order to achieve best results.
I do find it interesting how waterfed pole suppliers generally like to follow our lead, even when they admit to mistakes and have no window cleaning experiance. As they say imitation is the highest form of flattery. However, similar to crash testing I do welcome competitors who achieve the correct accreditation in order to provide the industry with qualified, credible alternatives.
Best Regards
Craig Mawlam
Internal Vertifier
BWCA City & Guilds NVQ Centre
0800 146133
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Craig
Where will the first course be held at, will other pole suppliers be there to coment on the correct use of there poles
John
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John,
The June courses are fully booked, the next free date is in July but that course is nearly full too. The courses are held in Swindon where we have the facility to use tall poles. Pole suppliers are welcome to attend if they book and if they do they will be able to see for themselves how even handed the training is. The WFP course focuses on correct technique to avoid musculoskeletal injury, cleaning techniques, forthcoming guidance notes, maintenance, and water treatment basics. Too many people out there are not using WFP's properly and in the long term this does nobody any good. All good operators know the stories of customers who have been turned off WFP's because a previous contractor made a poor job of it.
The point of the training is to equip all WFP users with the skills and knowledge to get the best results from their equipment regardless of whose equipment it is. So far all of the window cleaners that have signed up for training already have WFP's so clearly this is not an opportunity to sell systems. My aim is to ensure that all waterfed pole systems are used to their maximum potential for the benefit of those who use them.
Best regards
Craig Mawlam
BWCA C&G NVQ Centre
0800 146 133
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Craig
Will they all be done in Swindon or will you try to use your other depots for us up north
John
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No, Swindon's fine, keep it there. Thats only 20mins away!
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Courses will always be run at Swindon were we have the best facilities, however some will be run from suitable Hotel venues at other locations around the country.
Best regards
Craig
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Courses will always be run at Swindon were we have the best facilities, however some will be run from suitable Hotel venues at other locations around the country.
Best regards
Craig
Please tell me in advance when you plan to do one in Blackpool!
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Thanks for all your interest. Not bad for a new boy, his first post becoming a hot topic after only three days! Since we are Southport based, and are within easy reach of two of the biggest conurbations – Liverpool & Manchester - we would propose to run our first course here in Southport, starting at 10am on Friday 21st May, at a cost of £95 plus VAT, including mid-morning and mid-afternoon cuppas, and a worthwhile hot lunch. Subsequent courses will be run wherever the demand arises.
As Craig so aptly misquotes it, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Insofar as course content goes, we would be happy to flatter him by imitating his proposed course syllabus, as described in his reply #11 of 5.30pm on 27th April, since this develops what was suggested when I first started this thread, and is well within our capabilities.
Of the three tutors on our course, I have a science degree, and am as well qualified to deal with technological questions as anyone in the industry. My feet are however firmly on the ground, and there would be no question of attendees being “blinded by science”. My two colleagues, who are not too arrogant to learn from the mistakes inevitably made by ordinary mortals, have several years of hands-on experience in their daily use of water-fed poles. Moreover, their wealth of down-to-earth practical knowledge of their subject must have impressed anybody who visited our poleclean stand at Hinckley. As far as the practicalities of their subject are concerned, they are second to none.
If you would like more information, or wish to book a place on our first course, please email me direct.
Yours, Andrew Greenhalgh
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In the red corner..................
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I do not wish to get into a skirmish over this, as I said I welcome competition from suitably accredited training organisations. Qualified as Andrew may be in his chosen field I was expecting to hear about his qualifications with regard to delivering training, indeed developing training programs.
Andrew's desire to deliver training is admirable and no doubt he has plans to acquire the appropriate qualifications in order to provide meaningful training. From the candidate’s point of view, an investment in time and £95 +VAT should result in a certificate that will be recognised as having merit.
A certificate from The British Window Cleaning Academy will bear the City & Guilds Logo, NVQ Centre accreditation serial number, and the signature of the qualified centre Internal Verifier and Trainer. When presented to a potential customer or insurer as proof of training, a BWCA certificate will carry the necessary weight.
The use of the word "British" in our title means that the Department of Trade & Industry has authorized its use. Companies House was presented with such documentary evidence from the Wiltshire Training and Enterprise Council, City & Guilds and other agencies to support the application endorsed by the DTI. The use of the word "British" in our title highlights our pre-eminence in the field of training for the Window Cleaning Industry; this means that a certificate from the British Window Cleaning Academy is the highest value certificate other than the NVQ, that a Window Cleaner can hold for his trade.
At £95 + VAT our fee's are of equal value, however the value of the respective certificates is beyond compare (one of them not being worth the paper its written on). If two Window Cleaning companies tender for a contract and one presents BWCA certification and the other does not, given that both quoted a similar price, the one with BWCA certification is the one most likely to win the contract even if his quote was higher.
Andrew, if your motivation to provide training for our industry is driven by a desire to share learning, then you will best demonstrate this by gaining the appropriate accreditation and qualifications first. Without it one may speculate that your motivation is driven by a desire to follow the market leader in the hope that you may sell more WFP equipment.
If you are truly motivated to provide training and wish acquire the appropriate qualifications you are welcome to contact me and I will point you in the right direction and help you where I can.
Best Regards
Craig Mawlam
Internal Verifier
BWCA C&G NVQ Centre
0800 146 133
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nice to see the suppliers giving it a bit of stick
craig i was quite amused that my course cheque which i made payable to bwca was not acceptable all course fees to ionics ltd ;)just thought i,d add that one so all the wfp people can see your truly on the industries side ha ha ha ;D ;D ;D
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Taking care of the admin in this way simply helps to keep the cost of the training down.
Craig
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Are there any places left on the Marketing course Craig? I got the mail package, v impressed.
The BWCA has never concealed the fact that it is sponsored by Ionic. I dont see there'd be any need to set up a seperate bank account.
-Philip
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Visitors to the demonstration area of the Nat Fed show last week would have seen, next to our outdoor stand our Training partners-
Operator Training Services
With whom we are developing a Waterfed Pole training program.
Operator Training Services offer CITB, PASMA, IPAF courses the most relevent to our industry being their courses in Articulated Booms, Scissor Lifts,Ladder Usage, Mobile Access Towers and Fall Restraint Equipment.
They have advised and participated with our Window Cleaning Company on a couple of difficult access contracts.
Our window cleaning staff obtained IPAF licences and PASMA certificates with them.
The guys at Operator Training are well know in the training industry carying out the training for many of the access hire companies.
I would welcome feedback from Craig to enable us to produce a composite training program for the safest possible method for pole operators.
If the two largest manufacturers of waterfed pole equipment both with extensive window cleaning experiance put their heads together then we will acheive this.
Glyn
Omnipole(UK) Ltd
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Glyn,
Perhaps you'll give me a call to discuss?
Best regards
Craig
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THINLY DIGUISED MARKETING EXERCISE :P????
at least andrews water treatment sounded real guys come on this is a forum we can all do the marketing bit
the two biggest pole makers in the country howdy pardner
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Hello Glyn,
Where are Operator Training Services based?
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;)This is what I love about the industry ;D you never know whats going to happen next ??? some heads turn and some may just roll,but you must say this,the ones
who lead will always be first! and being first is what counts ;) theres to much talk and biteing,one this will all calm down,youll see. the battle of the wfp commence,
will they join forces I think they will all follow one.
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Hi Martin
Operator Training Services are based in Godstone on the M25 - HORROR
But they will go out to train if a big enouth attendance is prommised
Glyn
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Choice.Clean I am not sure what you are implying
Glyn
Omnipole
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see my comment on nfmwgc guidence wfp the irony of it all
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I'm amazed every day to see the back-biting that goes on on this forum. When I started this thread just ten days ago, it was out of a genuine belief, from the enquiries on our website, and on our stand at Hinckley, that there is a real need for comprehensive advice (without the heavy marketing push) on the use of wfp.
Increasingly, our enquiries are coming from the one-man or two-man outfit, who are alive to their need to get into wfp, and are understandably bewildered by what's on offer. Amongst the questions to which they need answers, BEFORE making any investment, are:-
1. Should they even consider investing many thousands in a top-of-the-range system in a brand new van, when they’ve no idea how to use the system, and whether it’s right for their business?
2. How long might their wfp business take to build up to justify their investment?
3. Should they opt for a van-based system at all, and face the same expense again when they expand to a second van? Might they not be better with a garage-based production system, which can easily be expanded, with a simple inexpensive modular delivery system added as each additional van is acquired?
In January 2003, I wrote an article on this subject in “Window Talk”, which is reproduced on our website at www.andwat.co.uk. This article sets out our continuing philosophy, and “hard sell” obviously forms no part of it.
The comments posted on this forum reveal a surprising interest in a paper “qualification” at the conclusion of a training course, although the certificate may prove of little practical value to the recipient. We’ve certainly no intention of gaining the necessary accreditation to be able to offer formal NVQ courses, we’re far too busy. Anybody interested in the valuable information that we DO have on offer please email me privately with any enquiries, on andwat@talk21.com.
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Hi Andrew
We have always offered free participation and instruction in use of Omnipole equipment with our own team of window cleaners. Very many customers have taken up the offer to spend a few hours or a whole day with our teams. Most havent for various reasons.
The training we are talking about now is not the same type of basic instruction. In fact we are not qualified to offer free training in the legal sense. Training has become a problem in all industries due to the chance of a law suit. If the training hasnt been carried out correctly by a qualified Instructor all hell could break loose!
I have been legally advised not to offer training as we could open ourselves up to prosecution. For this reason we have tied up with Operator Training Services - who are highly qualified and approved.
We are now talking about a training program that covers all issues regarding Health and Safety from a classroom - to being on site - this will probably require a written test at the end of the training course. We envisage that this training will result in a qualification reconised by Health and Safety Officers in all industries.
In our Window Cleaning work for many of our customers, we are required to have undertaken various training courses most of which have a written test for example to erect a 6 metre high tower on London Underground property we required PASMA certification, without it we would not have been allowed to work nor indeed been given the job.
In most industries the same is true for example if go on to construction site nowdays you need to have a wallet full of licences and certificates to prove you can do your job safely. By having qualifications in Window cleaning can only be good for the Industry bringing it into line with other trades. Scaffolders,Electricians, Plumbers etc,etc.all need safety training certificates to prove they can do their job safely.
This will drive the signing-on cowboys out of window cleaning giving more work to profesionals- whhhhhhhhewwwww ;D
Glyn
Omnipole
Ps I'll call you asap
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please note that my intention is and was to get manufacturers to get real about the training. i now have a business established but it was pure grit that got me thru tha last 3 years establishing it what i am trying to do is help people to see that it is not as simple as those marketing the system often make out. even this forum fails often to inform of the down side of pole systems. unfortunately many of us are prepared to sit back and let others find out for themselves the pitfalls of the system not everyone can remortgage the house when they realsie that the kit they had is vastly inadequate for the task they have taken on. in my early days with the system i found that people using the kit had far more practical advice than those selling it. i think that manufacturers should use those who buy kit to help those considering purchasing not just take the money and run. although this may not be true of all manufacturers i certainly found it true when i bought a system.
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Choice.Clean
I agree with you whole heartedly
Glyn
Omnipole
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Well that was an interesting read. I would love to attend a display of anyones WFP, especially in the North West.
I have spent hours reading about these poles and just want to see how they work in the field before travelling down South.
At this stage I don't know an omnipole from a bionic system, but if I can use one with ease (as easy as a ladder anyway) then I would buy one tomorrow.
This is a great site, a bit secret society some times.
Can anyone (Andy-watt )sis name looks best... arrange a day in Blackpool/Southport for all ladder dinosaurs to have a look at poles.
I am sure the other pole people will turn up if enough of us Northern Newbies are interested.
You know the you show me yours & i'll show you mine scenario.
From reading this thread it could be worth paying just to see all those pole makers slog it out in the flesh.
My message to ALL pole companies is....There is a huge potential market in the N.W. for your product but we want to see it, feel it, stroke itand see it at it's fully extended glory.
Many Thanks
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Every year there is an event organized by the NFMWGC called the "annual trade show". Amongst other things, the manufacturers of these pole systems from all over the UK exhibit their systems for the visitors to see.
This year's show (which was held in April) was in leicester, next year it will be in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Its free to attend (you dont have to be a Fed member) and you'll be able to see all of whats on offer and compare prices.
However, if you cant wait that long, there is another trade show ("The Windex show") which is a similar event held at the Exel centre in London.
The dates are the 8th and 9th of October.
At this stage I don't know an omnipole from a bionic system but if I can use one with ease (as easy as a ladder anyway) then I would buy one tomorrow.
I'm sure that Ionic Systems Ltd won't mind too much that you called their system bionic!
There are many systems on the market and they vary greatly in price and features. But it isnt simply a matter of ease of use. Switching to Water-Fed poles is a major business decision. Any system is likely to be the most expensive asset you have ever purchased for window cleaning.
(For an example, its not unusual to pay upto £6,000 for a good quality van-mounted system, and that doesnt include the cost of the van. They cant be installed in any Van, the payload weight must not be exceeded and a reputable manufacturer will not install in a van that is not in good enough condition to cope with the weight of a system)
The geographical location of a supplier is really of no importance compared to getting the right system for your needs. When the time comes to write the cheque, I'd be prepared to travel anywhere in the UK to have my system installed just to know that the money I have spent is on the best system for me. When we are talking about this level of capital outlay, its worth travelling for the best deal.
This, and other forums will be of help to you in deciding what system to go for, but its best to get as much info as possible (eg from the manufacturers) before making a commitment.
By the way, most manufacturers will come to you to give you a demo of their system (perhaps on one of your office contracts) free of charge
-Philip
PS Here are some links to Manufacturers (Make sure you order a brochure from them all):
http://www.ionicsystems.com Witshire
http://www.omnipole.com Croydon
http://www.pure2o.co.uk Chippenham (South West)
http://www.streamsupplies.net Stockton-on-tees
http://www.brodexbms.co.uk Merseyside
http://www.window-tools.com Scotland
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Many thanks Mr Ionic, I had a feeling you would respond.
I have been on this forum for 3 short days now and picked up a fantastic information overload.
Your list of suppliers and locations is really useful, I have now listed them for reference.
I would like to clarify a few points though.
You mention the Annual trade show. I missed that (sorry, busy working) same for April. I suppose I could make..LONDON!!!... in.... OCTOBER!!!..?
Is there not a lot of profit in these WFP's?
You also say geographical location is of no importance, and here I must disagree.
Firstly, I do not mind travelling to get the "BEST"? system installed, but which is that?.
I've got the £6k figure you quote, I don't mind travelling for installation, but I still havn't got a clue which system is best for me.
Lets say I need a new van costing about the same, would I have to spend a week.. (remember I'm self employed) travelling around the country, or waiting for exhibitions in four months time, 250 miles away?...before I could road test ?
Your final point that most manufacturers will do a demo on site, is the exact reason I answered this thread.
Can ALL the manufacturers do a demo in two weeks time, at say, the Nat Fed H.Q. or Blackpool tower? and instead of only me, one potential customer attending, invite hundreds of Northern cleaners?.
If they can turn up to do a demo for only one guy, surely it would be an excellent result if only 10 of us came.
I am new and apologise for my curiosity, but the man who posted this topic started off on my wavelength.
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Just to be clear, I am not a pole supplier and nor do I have anything whatsoever to do with Ionic or any other supplier.
I am a window cleaner like yourself.
But I do use a pole system.
Is there not a lot of profit in these WFP's?
It depends on your particular business. I prefer WFP systems to ladders, but they are more expensive to run.
Can ALL the manufacturers do a demo in two weeks time, at say, the Nat Fed H.Q. or Blackpool tower? and instead of only me, one potential customer attending, invite hundreds of Northern cleaners?.
I think it would be difficult to get the suppliers to co-ordinate all their demos, and some companies dont do them at all. But still, it might be worth a try. Give some a call and say you want to organize a "demo event". It might be some free publicity for them.
You'll need to have a decent sized building to clean, and of course the building owners permission!
-Philip
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Sorry Phil as you know... I'm new, had you down as the man from Ionics.
Have taken on board all the great advice that's posted all over this forum.
Just wish spending £6k plus on aWFP was as easy as buying a van.
Also to clarify, I meant is there much profit in WFP from the suppliers side of things.
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Tam Moffat here, I am wondering why any company is offering training in w/fed poles. ??? The H.& S. Exectutive have not even got guide lines out for W/fed poles and they are our leading body in safety.
Any certificate, be it from me, who is an assessor, internal verifier and runs a N/SVQ centre, :) in my opinion is not worth the paper it is written on as the H&S Ex. have not approved it. ???
If people want to go on these courses all well and good, they will get demonstrations, training etc, but
whatever they learn on whatever course they go on,
will be just what the person that is taking the course
knows through his or her experiance. Go on another course and the training might be differant.
It is up to the individual, but be warned, the cirtificate
could count for nothing but showing you how to use a
W/fed pole. Tam.
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sorry to add to the confusion but found out yesterday that my local business advice centre can get me a training grant for a new man of 750 if i send him for training course i.e. could be of interest to companies that are looking for staff send on a one day course for pole operators like bwca than do a bit of training in house and benefit by say 500 quid i don,t know if its avilable everywhere but worth asking about if your taking on staff :o