Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Perfect Windows on February 20, 2025, 04:06:16 pm
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Finally picked it up. Popped up to Glasgow yesterday to collect the new van.
Drive home was long - kept the speed at 60mph to keep the range up but still had three charge stops of about 35 - 45 minutes each to cover the 440 miles. All the chargers worked exactly as expected bar the top up at the start of the journey in Glasgow at a Tesla dealer where it ran at 1/3 expected charge rate. Gave me plenty of time to read the van manual at least.
Van lovely and quiet (I mean astoundingly quiet) so I arrived home late but pretty much OK. Bar the next week or two, that should be the last time I ever have to use public chargers. Home charger going in shortly.
Received an insurance quote from A Plan - as expected, roughly a third more than the diesel, which will wipe out the savings on fuel.
Wife taxed the van while I was driving - £0.
Astounding pickup when you put your foot down. Interested to see what that'll be like once it's carrying the best part of a ton of equipment.
Next step, install everything but the tank ready for the switch over.
(https://i.postimg.cc/13fCF81W/20250219-113043-Blur.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DS3PkyZs)
Vin
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Good to hear it all went well. I told you the torque was addictive :-)
Interesting camera stuck on the front!
Let us know how you get on installing the kit.
Is the insurance 30% more than a diesel same year and milage or just compared to your old van?
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Good to hear it all went well. I told you the torque was addictive :-)
Interesting camera stuck on the front!
Let us know how you get on installing the kit.
Is the insurance 30% more than a diesel same year and milage or just compared to your old van?
That's a good point that I hadn't considered. It's 30% more than a 19-yo diesel with 157,000 on the clock and worth 28p.
If you look, there are also two cameras on the sides and there's one looking back that you can't see in the pic. They all go to a seriously professionally fitted hub that I suspect has a hard drive in it. I have the supplier name, so when I have time I'll take a dekko at exactly how it works. Expensive looking kit. Van also has yellow flashing beacons inside the back doors (they can be switched on and seen when doors are open) plus the loudest reversing beeper you can imagine. Makes me think it was run by someone with a pretty professional attitude to H&S and security.
Vin
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I have a 2020 diesel vivaro and a 2020 electric vivaro both insured for any employee, both the same price. The only vehicle in the fleet that is any different is (was - recently sold) a 2009 navara which was the same price but not everyone could drive it - over 25 with a clean licence only.
I would shop around. I always advise to use a local broker if you can.
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Finally picked it up. Popped up to Glasgow yesterday to collect the new van.
Drive home was long - kept the speed at 60mph to keep the range up but still had three charge stops of about 35 - 45 minutes each to cover the 440 miles. All the chargers worked exactly as expected bar the top up at the start of the journey in Glasgow at a Tesla dealer where it ran at 1/3 expected charge rate. Gave me plenty of time to read the van manual at least.
Van lovely and quiet (I mean astoundingly quiet) so I arrived home late but pretty much OK. Bar the next week or two, that should be the last time I ever have to use public chargers. Home charger going in shortly.
Received an insurance quote from A Plan - as expected, roughly a third more than the diesel, which will wipe out the savings on fuel.
Wife taxed the van while I was driving - £0.
Astounding pickup when you put your foot down. Interested to see what that'll be like once it's carrying the best part of a ton of equipment.
Next step, install everything but the tank ready for the switch over.
(https://i.postimg.cc/13fCF81W/20250219-113043-Blur.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DS3PkyZs)
Vin
60mph is the speed limit ;)
Good aren't they.
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60mph is the speed limit ;)
Ha! Just thinking about this, you were probably on a motorway!
Closest motorway to me is about 100 miles away, which is out of range for the vans, pretty much!
The joys of being a country bumpkin / teuchter.
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Thanks for the update Vin.
How many miles did you do between stops and what were the percentages down to when you arrived in each stop?
What was your percentage remaining when you got home?
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I watched a review of the e tranny custom, it’s on YouTube by a tradesman, it has put me off electric somewhat. Worth a watch.
I’m really interested how you get on with this vin.
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Is an ev van 100% tax deductible for the first year? Even if bought with part loan?
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Is an ev van 100% tax deductible for the first year? Even if bought with part loan?
Was for me. Speak to an accountant.
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Is an ev van 100% tax deductible for the first year? Even if bought with part loan?
Was for me. Speak to an accountant.
How did you purchase it? Finance or outright?
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Is an ev van 100% tax deductible for the first year? Even if bought with part loan?
Was for me. Speak to an accountant.
How did you purchase it? Finance or outright?
The one I bought (most are/were rented) I bought with an interest free loan from the government.
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Sorry for the delay, but the forum disappeared. Answering the handful of questions.
Journeys between stops were about 120 or so miles. Funny how much more scared I was of running out of electrons than I am of running out of diesel, odd given the image below: all the 100kWh charger locations (100kW is the fastest the van will take charge) on the emptiest part of the journey. Top to bottom of this picture (Glasgow to Lancaster) is 160 miles or so. I suspect there are as many as there are petrol pumps on that route. But the range anxiety got to me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6gdSw2Q/Chargers-Scotland.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Every charger I hit worked fine bar one that said it was 100kW and actually managed 66kW. I could have moved the the one in the next parking bay but it was a meal stop so I wasn't too bothered. Charge times were 35m or so to closer to an hour there. Also, they all took a swiped credit card so I didn't use any of the apps.
Can't remember what range I hit home with. I was going to log it all carefully then Mrs Vin pointed out I'm never ever going to do a trip like that again and not to be such a silly s*d. I was running it down to about 20% and up to about 80%.
Purchased outright - all allowable this year, which is nice.
Looked up the wired in camera system. Yes it records all the time to a hard drive. About £1,700 worth (which I wasn't expecting, and which is a tad irrelevant to the EV part, but a nice bonus).
Yes, Soupy, we're able to hit the heady heights of 70mph on those really big roads we have in civilised areas. And yes, the torque is utterly addictive. Feels much more like my bike days than a two ton van.
Headaches so far (one very serious) in a later post,
Vin
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I bet the big problem is bolting down a tank.
That’s always going to be an issue with EV vans
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I bet the big problem is bolting down a tank.
That’s always going to be an issue with EV vans
Oh yes indeed.
The tank we need to move is a Super Zero from Gardiners. Very much used as the prototype that eventually became Grippa's offering. The way it's fitted is ingenious as it uses sliding bolts on a frame to hold the tank down. You have two bolts through to spreader plates at the front, two at the back. These bolts can be fitted anything up to about 95cm apart at the front, 75cm at the back. So far so good.
However, the van's battery is more than 95cm wide and sits as a huge block under the (perfectly flat) van floor. So, what needs to happen is that the battery needs to be removed and dropped out. Then you drill four holes through the nice, flat van floor, fit spreaders and bolt the tank in place. Then replace the battery. Minor difficulties arise because there are cooling fluid pipes above the battery and you need to be sure that bolt heads, etc aren't interfering with them. But there's plenty of room around them.
Removing the battery is a 90 minute job, as is replacing it. It requires an IMI grade 4 EV specialist to do it (400 odd volts will spoil your day if you don't know what you're doing). So just find a garage with a suitably qualified mechanic and get cracking, eh?
No. Most of the trained mechanics are tied to main dealers, every single one of whose attitude is "let's have a look at all the things that could go wrong; no, not under any circumstances". The independents are few and far between and their attitude is "That's an interesting problem, we'd love to have a go and we're happy to help". But the nearest I've found is 95 miles away and fully booked to the end of the month (maybe because they're helpful unlike the main dealers).
So here we are. Booked in in three weeks for a 190 mile round trip to fit the tank.
Still, it's given us plenty of time to kit out the new van all bar the tank. And the old van soldiers on undefeated.
Vin
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Sounds pretty annoying!
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What weight is the big Ev battery?
I guess it would be 300kgs but its all to do with the range.
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https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/vauxhall/vivaro/2020-vivaro-e-review/
I was surprised to read it has a payload of 1,226kgs for an EV van which is more than my VW Crafter.
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Sounds pretty annoying!
It is, but this is the first one we've bought so we expected that all the hassles were going to come out on this one. The good news is that there's someone out there willing to help us with the job. In five years, there'll be far more people looking for the work - at the moment it's mostly main dealers and, let's face it, if they turn down our money today someone will be in to have their Vauxhall serviced tomorrow. As independents have to deal with BEVs more and more there'll be competition from people who actually want to make money and retain customers.
Vin
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Sounds pretty annoying!
It is, but this is the first one we've bought so we expected that all the hassles were going to come out on this one. The good news is that there's someone out there willing to help us with the job. In five years, there'll be far more people looking for the work - at the moment it's mostly main dealers and, let's face it, if they turn down our money today someone will be in to have their Vauxhall serviced tomorrow. As independents have to deal with BEVs more and more there'll be competition from people who actually want to make money and retain customers.
Vin
Thinking outside the box that the majority of us use when it comes to fitting a tank in a van.
Is it possible to secure the tank other than through the floor utilising (e.g.) where the bulkhead is installed and/or sills, the cross member where the rear bumper affixes to/wheelarches etc.
Using chains/welded struts?
Obviously a professional engineer would need to be consulted.
Just something rattling in my mind in that if you were a courier and delivering say a 500L tank of juice then you wouldn't HAVE to (legally) modify a van at all.
And for clarity - I personally WOULD want sensible fixing of a tank. More so for an employee or franchisee.
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Sounds pretty annoying!
It is, but this is the first one we've bought so we expected that all the hassles were going to come out on this one. The good news is that there's someone out there willing to help us with the job. In five years, there'll be far more people looking for the work - at the moment it's mostly main dealers and, let's face it, if they turn down our money today someone will be in to have their Vauxhall serviced tomorrow. As independents have to deal with BEVs more and more there'll be competition from people who actually want to make money and retain customers.
Vin
Thinking outside the box that the majority of us use when it comes to fitting a tank in a van.
Is it possible to secure the tank other than through the floor utilising (e.g.) where the bulkhead is installed and/or sills, the cross member where the rear bumper affixes to/wheelarches etc.
Using chains/welded struts?
Obviously a professional engineer would need to be consulted.
Just something rattling in my mind in that if you were a courier and delivering say a 500L tank of juice then you wouldn't HAVE to (legally) modify a van at all.
And for clarity - I personally WOULD want sensible fixing of a tank. More so for an employee or franchise.
Were you thinking along the line of skid plates? Fit the tank to a frame that has 'outriggers' in exactly the right places so the battery doesn't have to be dropped for access.
Who was that supplier who put their tanks on a frame? I don't think they are in business any longer. (Omnipole?)
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I have Grippa's 650l tank and it sits in a frame and the frame is fixed to floor with bolts through spreader plates.
In an accident, you can get charged with having an unsafe load. If I was an employee and I got injured then I would be instructing my lawyer to go down this road. So with that in mind I would only have my vans fitted with crash test tanks.
Here's a thing no one bar me has thought of. If I change vans then who do I get to swap the tank over? I could do the task myself but would that satisfy the courts? If I get Oliver to do it and have the paper work from Grippa then its all legal when I have an accident. It also keeps me legal with my insurance policy.
One to think about.
Remember, these things only arise in a court case or when the insurance has to be paid out and that's when they look at all the small print to see if they can wriggle out of it and blame the owner.
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Exactly what spruce says. Weld or bolt the tank frame to another frame or skid then bolt that in where you can.
I've just done the same thing on my pug partner saved dropping the tank simply made a tank frame then welded it to sub frame made from box section.
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I have Grippa's 650l tank and it sits in a frame and the frame is fixed to floor with bolts through spreader plates.
In an accident, you can get charged with having an unsafe load. If I was an employee and I got injured then I would be instructing my lawyer to go down this road. So with that in mind I would only have my vans fitted with crash test tanks.
Here's thing no one bar me has thought of. If I change vans then who do I get to swap the tank over? I could do the task myself but would that satisfy the courts? If I get Oliver to do it and have the paper work from Grippa then its all legal when I have an accident. It also keeps me legal with my insurance policy.
One to think about.
Remember, these things only arise in a court case or when the insurance has to be paid out and that's when they look at all the small print to see if they can wriggle out of it and blame the owner.
I think you might be wrong in your assumption there. But give yourself a pat on the back anyway.
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In answer to Spruce. I hadn't thought any further than what I posted.
But bigger brains like yours are!
Which is good.
;D
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I'm not going to raise the whole issue of tank safety again: there have been dozens of threads on the subject and it all becomes heated, every time. However, I do know I don't have the skills to judge whether a particular solution will do the job. I can't judge the strength of a weld under a 20t force. It's easy to consider how you stop a load sliding under braking. It's a completely different kettle of fish working out what a tank will do to its mountings with the weight of a couple of elephants hanging off them.
What I do have is a system that's been crash tested and that I know how to refit.I've spoken to Alex and it's straightforward. Amazingly so. Brilliantly so.
So I'm resigned to dropping the battery and fitting the tank I have in exactly the way I know it was designed to be fitted.
I'm not running down anyone who fits a tank in any particular way. This decision is purely about what I'm happy with.
However, for the longer term, I'm looking to come up with a solution for when the franchisees come to replace ICE with BEV vans. It's a major problem looming for the tank manufacturers. As I've said before, in a handful of years this is going to have to be solved.
Vin
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Are you charging from home? Do you have to calculate daily charging time multiplied by £/kWh to put down as a business expense?
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Are you charging from home? Do you have to calculate daily charging time multiplied by £/kWh to put down as a business expense?
Home chargers now have to have a separate smart meter, so these costs will be billed separately. You will know exactly what electricity your van has used each month.
The problem could be that in the future, Vin's private car could also be electric using the same charge point. I don't know how that would work.
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Are you charging from home? Do you have to calculate daily charging time multiplied by £/kWh to put down as a business expense?
Home chargers now have to have a separate smart meter, so these costs will be billed separately. You will know exactly what electricity your van has used each month.
The problem could be that in the future, Vin's private car could also be electric using the same charge point. I don't know how that would work.
I believe the software that runs the charger knows what kind of vehicle is plugged into it, so separating the two sets of bills is pretty straightforward.
As long as I have the amount of electricity and the unit price it should be straightforward. Though at about 3p a mile maximum and 3,000 miles a year it's only going to be about £90.
Vin
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Are you charging from home? Do you have to calculate daily charging time multiplied by £/kWh to put down as a business expense?
Home chargers now have to have a separate smart meter, so these costs will be billed separately. You will know exactly what electricity your van has used each month.
The problem could be that in the future, Vin's private car could also be electric using the same charge point. I don't know how that would work.
I believe the software that runs the charger knows what kind of vehicle is plugged into it, so separating the two sets of bills is pretty straightforward.
As long as I have the amount of electricity and the unit price it should be straightforward. Though at about 3p a mile maximum and 3,000 miles a year it's only going to be about £90.
Vin
Wow. Thanks for that info.
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I have solar panels which produce 10kw a day on average from now till October. Only use 2 kws a day so rest goes back to the grid. If I had EV van then I would be looking at installing a 10kw battery and switching to Octopus energy to get the 9p per Kw charge between 11pm and 5am to charge the van and even the battery.
I now have a steady stream of solar cleans till May which I clean every year. New houses all have some solar panels and I have to take out my 35 foot pole to clean the veluxes and I give the panels a once over each month from now till September, its a nice selling point on the new estate I clean. Don't think anyone else does it and it take's a minute.
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I have solar panels which produce 10kw a day on average from now till October. Only use 2 kws a day so rest goes back to the grid. If I had EV van then I would be looking at installing a 10kw battery and switching to Octopus energy to get the 9p per Kw charge between 11pm and 5am to charge the van and even the battery.
I now have a steady stream of solar cleans till May which I clean every year. New houses all have some solar panels and I have to take out my 35 foot pole to clean the veluxes and I give the panels a once over each month from now till September, its a nice selling point on the new estate I clean. Don't think anyone else does it and it take's a minute.
??? ??? Most houses have 16 panels. Are you charging to clean these every time you get your heavy 35' pole out? Have you been on an SS course?
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This thread is primarily about electric vans. Please stay on that topic.
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i would be interested to here anyone who runs a hot water system in a electric van how it affects the battery as they draw a lot of power i saw streamline installed one in a vivaro e i herd 40 miles per charge in winter 80 miles summer !!
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i would be interested to here anyone who runs a hot water system in a electric van how it affects the battery as they draw a lot of power i saw streamline installed one in a vivaro e i herd 40 miles per charge in winter 80 miles summer !!
I'd be interested to know how they installed the tank as well.
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I'd be interested to know how they installed the tank as well.
Old tank cage being removed from our van today. It has a few patches of cosmetic rust so we're giving it a full repaint then we're off next Wednesday to have the battery dropped and the cage fitted to the new van (hopefully).
So hopefully by next week we'll at least know how easy a Grippatank is to fit in a Stellantis EV. Or if it simply won't fit, which is a possibility.
Vin
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i would be interested to here anyone who runs a hot water system in a electric van how it affects the battery as they draw a lot of power i saw streamline installed one in a vivaro e i herd 40 miles per charge in winter 80 miles summer !!
Let's say you're raising the temperature of 500 litres of water by 30C.
Raising the temp of one litre of water by 1C requires 4,200 joules of energy. So to do 500l x 30C would need 63million joules.
1kWh (3,600 seconds in an hour x 1,000 joules) = 3.6 million joules so heating that much water would take 17.5kWh*, which (with a 20% inefficiency built in) is roughly a quarter of a full battery charge on a 75kWh Vivaro. Which would take the range down from 210 to about 150. That 210 is an empty van, in summer.
However...
With a 7kW charger on your drive you're only putting 35kWh into the battery in a five hour cheap rate charging window. At that rate, half of that is going into the water heater, so your ability to do longer runs a few days a week would be severely hit.
On the other side of that, the day of water heating on that cheap rate electricity, is only costing you about £1.50. On public charging at 79p per kWH, that would be £14 a day.
Sounds possible (but only just).
Vin
* All calculations my own so best checked if you're making any decisions based on this.
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An additional thought. If someone's fitted an electric water heater running from the main battery of the van, they're working with a 450v DC power supply that's extremely well protected and isolated from interference so I sincerely hope they know what they're doing. Good luck claiming on your battery warranty if there's an issue and good luck if you suffer a 450v shock.
Vin
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I'd be interested to know how they installed the tank as well.
Old tank cage being removed from our van today. It has a few patches of cosmetic rust so we're giving it a full repaint then we're off next Wednesday to have the battery dropped and the cage fitted to the new van (hopefully).
So hopefully by next week we'll at least know how easy a Grippatank is to fit in a Stellantis EV. Or if it simply won't fit, which is a possibility.
Vin
Have you verified with your van insurance that you are changing over the system yourself? Good to know how they respond to this. Better to know you are covered in the event of an accident. 😉
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An additional thought. If someone's fitted an electric water heater running from the main battery of the van, they're working with a 450v DC power supply that's extremely well protected and isolated from interference so I sincerely hope they know what they're doing. Good luck claiming on your battery warranty if there's an issue and good luck if you suffer a 450v shock.
Vin
If you are electrically heating the water and your van is on the drive for charging its batteries then a seperate 240 volt immersion heater overnight could do the heavy lifting for you.
Then any element run off of the van battery could be used as necessary later in the working day just to keep the temperature up.
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Good point. And the maths is the same: if you're on the EV tariff and you heat the water with the immersion heater, again you're looking at about £1.50.
One of our guys had an immersion heater fitted and, with an inch of Celotex insulation, it would stay warm enough all day.
Vin
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a immersion heater sounds ok but running a thermo pure would be better as you get much hotter water im not sure if they added to leisure batterys as a buffer to the main van battery ?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8uveArWkhc&t=31s&pp=ygUYc3RyZWFtbGluZSBkaWVzZWwgaGVhdGVy
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Another thought. Charging the van battery and running a 3kW immersion at the same time would add up to about 50 amps running through your house wiring. Not insignificant and worth checking with the sparky fitting the EV charger.
Vin
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Extension lead for van has a maximum of 3150 watts fully unwound but 720watts coiled on reel for a 13amp extension lead which would start a house fire as the lead would melt for sure if running 3kw immersion heater and that's without using a battery charger.
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Extension lead for van has a maximum of 3150 watts fully unwound but 720watts coiled on reel for a 13amp extension lead which would start a house fire as the lead would melt for sure if running 3kw immersion heater and that's without using a battery charger.
When I had a 3kw element I used a 16amp caravan socket.
But when I changed tanks I went for 2kw and reverted to standard 13 amp plugs.
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Another thought. Charging the van battery and running a 3kW immersion at the same time would add up to about 50 amps running through your house wiring. Not insignificant and worth checking with the sparky fitting the EV charger.
Vin
Yes. And if you are future proofing you might want to consider that your house might be supplying two EVs (van and family car) and an immersion.
Always check with a qualified electrician.
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Another thought. Charging the van battery and running a 3kW immersion at the same time would add up to about 50 amps running through your house wiring. Not insignificant and worth checking with the sparky fitting the EV charger.
Vin
Quite often the sparky installing the EV charger will ask the DNO (Distribution Network Operator) to install a 100Amp supply fuse it the incoming cable is of sufficient size.