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UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: 8weekly on January 11, 2017, 09:09:32 pm

Title: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 11, 2017, 09:09:32 pm
After only 4 month my first 4040 membrane is shot. I'm told it's because I had set the ratio incorrectly. I set it to 50:50 ish, but June at Gaps says 70:30 . anyway, I've got my new membrane (the first one was preinstalled), is there a decent video out there of how to change one? I've heard they can be tricky. I've got no prebooked work tomorrow just in case....
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Clever Forum Name on January 11, 2017, 09:14:12 pm
You can't starve a membrane of water it's basically been burnt out. Holes in the membrane.

You have to give an RO some decent waste

https://youtu.be/iP0t25qn7HM

Might help. Nothing to it really.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 11, 2017, 09:25:43 pm
Cheers. I have the plastic housing and it isn't totally obvious how to open it up to be honest. I was being mean as we're on a water meter now. Not had a bill yet, but the idea that we have to pour 2000 litres away for every 1000 gives me sleepless nights.  ;D
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Clever Forum Name on January 11, 2017, 09:33:01 pm
60/40 or something like that is good. Always needs more than 50/50.

You need to balance pure to waste you should find the sweet spot with TDS and LPM

I actually run at 40/45 55/60 ish.

Put have tremendous tap pressure and high flow of water ie LPM

460-500 in and less than 10 out!!
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 11, 2017, 09:37:19 pm
60/40 or something like that is good. Always needs more than 50/50.

You need to balance pure to waste you should find the sweet spot with TDS and LPM

I actually run at 40/45 55/60 ish.

Put have tremendous tap pressure and high flow of water ie LPM

460-500 in and less than 10 out!!
I've got a Clarke pump. About 280 tds in. Was about 6 out but now 58. Went quickly. I'll run without resin I think when it's back to 6.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Frankybadboy on January 11, 2017, 09:47:13 pm
4 months that unheard off

but there again your the richest window cleaner here,so can afford it  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 11, 2017, 09:49:36 pm
4 months that unheard off

but there again your the richest window cleaner here,so can afford it  ;D ;D ;D ;D
My profit this year wouldn't buy the front forks on your bike!
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Frankybadboy on January 11, 2017, 10:05:58 pm
4 months that unheard off

but there again your the richest window cleaner here,so can afford it  ;D ;D ;D ;D
My profit this year wouldn't buy the front forks on your bike!
talking of bikes i am due a new one,so much £4 collecting to be done  ;)
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Tony dunmall on January 11, 2017, 10:07:35 pm
my membrane last one year, but we do put about 20,000 litre through it each week, we run ours keeping about 60 percent I'm pretty happy with how it performs 
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 11, 2017, 10:19:44 pm
4 months that unheard off

but there again your the richest window cleaner here,so can afford it  ;D ;D ;D ;D
My profit this year wouldn't buy the front forks on your bike!
talking of bikes i am due a new one,so much £4 collecting to be done  ;)
One of the most amusing threads that one. ;D
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: colin bird on January 12, 2017, 06:32:59 am
Cheers. I have the plastic housing and it isn't totally obvious how to open it up to be honest. I was being mean as we're on a water meter now. Not had a bill yet, but the idea that we have to pour 2000 litres away for every 1000 gives me sleepless nights.  ;D

ive been on meter for a year water bill doubled i fitted a sub meter and save about £300 a year
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: andyM on January 12, 2017, 07:14:29 am
I've been running my membrane on around 50/50 ratio for about 3 years and seems fine.
The membrane is now 3 1/2 years old, a HF4 from Gaps, my tap water is 280ppm.
Although I'm sure you will be using a lot more water than me 8 weekly as you have employees.
Have you been doing  filter changes on a regular basis?
Otherwise chlorine can end the membranes life prematurely.
 
 
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: cgh window cleaning on January 12, 2017, 07:24:09 am
I have just got a new static system with 40/40 it has a booster on it.
Now this may sound a stupid question but how is the best way to find  the sweet spot the balance  between waste to pure ratio?
The supplier said to close the tap and waste is running down drain.
Like 8 weekly I'm on a metre so want to try and get the balance right.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 12, 2017, 07:44:48 am
I've been running my membrane on around 50/50 ratio for about 3 years and seems fine.
The membrane is now 3 1/2 years old, a HF4 from Gaps, my tap water is 280ppm.
Although I'm sure you will be using a lot more water than me 8 weekly as you have employees.
Have you been doing  filter changes on a regular basis?
Otherwise chlorine can end the membranes life prematurely.
I was told to watch for a drop in pressure between the two filters. As soon as there was a noticeable gap I switched them. I guess we're using around 1,300 litres a day.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: andyM on January 12, 2017, 07:57:57 am
I was told to watch for a drop in pressure between the two filters. As soon as there was a noticeable gap I switched them. I guess we're using around 1,300 litres a day.

I'm not saying that's the wrong advice.
But if you wait for a drop in pressure then the filter is pretty much expired.
I think you are better off changing them on a regular basis, maybe even keeping a track of how many litres of water are passing through the filters.
I use a single 10" fibredyne cfb plus filter and they have a 37,800 litres life expectancy.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: andyM on January 12, 2017, 08:03:30 am
This might help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd2H0P9iJD8
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Spruce on January 12, 2017, 09:09:21 am
This might help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd2H0P9iJD8

It all happens from the inlet side of the r/o housing; the one that only has one port.

He didn't lubricate the sleeve on the other end of the membrane which he should do. Just the lightest of grease smear is all that is needed.  That also has to push into the housing that has o ring seals.

.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 12, 2017, 09:30:18 am
This might help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd2H0P9iJD8
Excellent. Thank you.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 12, 2017, 04:03:06 pm
Eventually I got the end cap off. I had to remove both to get the membrane out as it was too tight. But now I can't get the end cap back in sufficiently to fit the white ring. I'm beginning to wish I'd stuck with the Merlin. Any advice for getting it back in?  I can't get it in far enough to clear the slot that the ring snaps in.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: andyM on January 12, 2017, 04:40:59 pm
I'm not experienced at changing the 4040 membrane as mine's still on it's original.
But have you given the membrane enough of a shove to get it back into it's original position? As it sounds as if it's not quite pushed home enough.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 12, 2017, 06:52:04 pm
I'm not experienced at changing the 4040 membrane as mine's still on it's original.
But have you given the membrane enough of a shove to get it back into it's original position? As it sounds as if it's not quite pushed home enough.
No. I had to take both end caps off. The bit in the video where he clips the white ring in is very misleading. In reality I could not get enough even pressure on the cap to force it in because of the thickness of the O ring underneath. In the end the O ring was cut by the cap and I'm awaiting another.

Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: andyM on January 12, 2017, 07:04:37 pm
Next time try tapping the end cap in the centre with a rubber mallet.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Frankybadboy on January 12, 2017, 07:31:58 pm
Next time try tapping the end cap in the centre with a rubber mallet.
yep what i do
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 12, 2017, 08:04:22 pm
Next time try tapping the end cap in the centre with a rubber mallet.
yep what i do
Tapping wouldn't do it. According to GAPS the o ring is now thicker. I was banging hell out of it, but what it really needed was heavy and level pressure. June is lending me a tool to get more even leverage. I'm pretty sure it's not me that's the problem but who knows? If all else fails Cliff Perkins from here is going to let me have some water but I'm hoping to get it sorted before.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Frankybadboy on January 12, 2017, 08:19:32 pm
replaced three of my own membrane and had to do it with each one,also build a system for a mate and done the same with his,

actually put a block of wood on the end then hit it,or place the open end cap on and hit that,but still use the wood

if that doesnt work then get back in the gym you lazy git  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: CleanClear on January 12, 2017, 10:55:41 pm
Next time try tapping the end cap in the centre with a rubber mallet.
yep what i do
Tapping wouldn't do it. According to GAPS the o ring is now thicker. I was banging hell out of it, but what it really needed was heavy and level pressure. June is lending me a tool to get more even leverage. I'm pretty sure it's not me that's the problem but who knows? If all else fails Cliff Perkins from here is going to let me have some water but I'm hoping to get it sorted before.

They've always been difficult for me to refit too. I generally put a pice of 3x2 or similar over it an whack the hell out of it, with someone else running round the clip with a screwdriver.
 I'd pay attention to what Andy said above, its more than likely that Chlorine has killed your membrane. I don't use a 5 micron filter and then a carbon filer anymore for that reason, carbon filters are 5 micron anyway i just use 2 carbon filters.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Carl2009 on January 13, 2017, 11:31:42 am
I've yet to replace my 4" x 40" membrane (Pure Feedom Champ housing) but the  time is approaching I guess. I didn't know you had to balance the waste to pure ratio - how is this done?

I just thought you swapped membranes and you were away?

Cheers

Carl
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: CleanClear on January 13, 2017, 04:04:13 pm
I've yet to replace my 4" x 40" membrane (Pure Feedom Champ housing) but the  time is approaching I guess. I didn't know you had to balance the waste to pure ratio - how is this done?

I just thought you swapped membranes and you were away?

Cheers

Carl

Where the waste comes out you should have a valve or tap. Reducing the waste will create more product water and vis versa.
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: Carl2009 on January 13, 2017, 04:34:11 pm
I've yet to replace my 4" x 40" membrane (Pure Feedom Champ housing) but the  time is approaching I guess. I didn't know you had to balance the waste to pure ratio - how is this done?

I just thought you swapped membranes and you were away?

Cheers

Carl

Where the waste comes out you should have a valve or tap. Reducing the waste will create more product water and vis versa.

Aha, got it. Yep, I have a gate valve. PF didn't say anything about how much it should be open, so it's been closed the entire time i've had it.

Just for people's info, I make about 400l a day - sometimes less; rarely more. I've got a TDS of around 100 or so from the tap; I have a booster pump on the supply to the van (gawd knows what it boosts the 2 or so bar pressure up to) and I have tds of around 5 ppm post RO, pre DI. The RO membrane has been in, unchanged, since April 2009. I flush for at least 20 mins once a week, sometimes more cos I use the waste to wash the van with.  I change resin around every 8 or 9 months now (I guess - I don't check). I changed it today cos when I checked TDS was 2ppm and there's only one way it was going to go, plus I had the time today, cold though it was. I change pre-filters every 3 months (saying that I have a Fibredyne carbon filter now, so i'll change that every 6 months).

I reckon soft water (i'm glad I have the RO nonetheless) regular flushing and regular pre-filter changes have helped extend the life of the RO, but i'm pretty sure i'll be changing it this spring anyway.

Cheers

Carl
Title: Re: Changing a 4040 membrane
Post by: 8weekly on January 13, 2017, 05:37:41 pm
Finally sorted it. Cliff Perkins did it for me. I was trying to knock it in with one hit, but Cliff got it in on one side, then smashed it in on the other side. Like a barrel I guess. I'm mighty relieved.