Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Richard iSparkle on December 21, 2013, 12:13:31 pm
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HI Guys,
I have been the victim of fraud and have involved the police. It has been committed by a former employee and there is clear evidence as it was done through the banks.
The thing is the police have known for 3 weeks and have done very little beyond taking my statement. they need a statement off a customer but whilst it was booked to happen 3 weeks ago they have been held up apparently because the officer involved works evenings and has to deal with people in custody (i.e. drunks and fighters etc).
anybody on here have any experience with the police and how to get them to give this crime more urgency. the fraud is ongoing by the way so will continue until the individual has been stopped!
any help very welcome :P
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Ongoing and you're still employing him?!
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Ongoing but it says it was a former employee
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How is he still taking your money if he doesn't work for you?
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This may come as a shock but frontline bobbies have no choice but investigate slowly..
They are allocated a crime to investigate it is theirs they are the investigating officer . They work shift so there is not a lot they will be able to do on nights or days off. this leaves days when're they can talk / deal with monday to friday ends such as banks etc. on a late shift they can talk to the people who work in their homes.. On top of this they have to respond to every call they are allocated to.. Oh and each individual cop is investigating in the region of 10 crimes at anyone time..
Add to this for fraud offences the disclosure legislation that has to be satisfied for the banks to release information makes it even slower.
Once upon a time fraud was dealt with by CID officer she don't have the burden of Shifts and responding to road accidents etc. But most CID officers are now tied up dealing with sexual offences. and traditional CID work like fraud, burglary and the like falls to uniformed cops..
Then throw into the mix the government has cut their resources, and that directly translates into officer numbers by 20%..
What happens on the TV is not representative of British policing..
I have to ask why are the bank not stopping transactions.. and if I recall there is a directive from the Home office that Banks are the prosecuting authority for fraud involving banks.. Not the police..
email me at windows@albrightandshiny.co.uk and Ill try and help you out best I can.. I know the system very well.
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Could be loads of ways..
Has your bank details..
Gave customers wrong bank details....
Tell us.
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Done by standing order and they changed the bank details on our paperwork.
Ongoing because the standing orders can't be stopped unless by the client, and we need the police to check the fraudsters bank account to find out what has been paid and what is still being paid
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Done by standing order and they changed the bank details on our paperwork.
Ongoing because the standing orders can't be stopped unless by the client, and we need the police to check the fraudsters bank account to find out what has been paid and what is still being paid
That is tough, fella.
All the best with it.
Assume you've put in place procedures so it can't happen again...
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Done by standing order and they changed the bank details on our paperwork.
Ongoing because the standing orders can't be stopped unless by the client, and we need the police to check the fraudsters bank account to find out what has been paid and what is still being paid
So the employee is cleaning one of your accounts but the fee via issued invoice is being paid into the employees account instead of yours?
Not sure about a fraud case, but the police would have a murder case on their hands if he was one of mine.
Good luck and I hope the scrote gets his comeuppance
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Done by standing order and they changed the bank details on our paperwork.
Ongoing because the standing orders can't be stopped unless by the client, and we need the police to check the fraudsters bank account to find out what has been paid and what is still being paid
That is tough, fella.
All the best with it.
Assume you've put in place procedures so it can't happen again...
Direct debit now... much easier to track and much easier to investigate. also we can stop them if we need to at our end
But, as always if someone is in a position of trust, they can always find ways to abuse it.
Thanks tho :) Every day is a lesson!
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Done by standing order and they changed the bank details on our paperwork.
Ongoing because the standing orders can't be stopped unless by the client, and we need the police to check the fraudsters bank account to find out what has been paid and what is still being paid
So the employee is cleaning one of your accounts but the fee via issued invoice is being paid into the employees account instead of yours?
Not sure about a fraud case, but the police would have a murder case on their hands if he was one of mine.
Good luck and I hope the scrote gets his comeuppance
It's actually from my domestic cleaning business where clients pay us a management fee by monthly standing order. so the staff member set up a new client, arrange a cleaner to go weekly (who gets paid directly), and hid the file. staff member was only person handling this business so easy for her to hide, and she did the monthly payment audit, so was able to hide it.
strong case for getting an independent auditor in every year!
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strong case for getting an independent auditor in every year!
Strong case for paying your staff well by the sounds of it.
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they were well paid Matt. very well in fact
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Well? paid.
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strong case for getting an independent auditor in every year!
Strong case for paying your staff well by the sounds of it.
Of course, if your low paid the next obvious step is to steal from your employer. Stands to reason.
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;D
I used to do that and shag his wife. Least I got a bonus come christmas.
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Done by standing order and they changed the bank details on our paperwork.
Ongoing because the standing orders can't be stopped unless by the client, and we need the police to check the fraudsters bank account to find out what has been paid and what is still being paid
Hi Richard
Are you not able to see from your bank records which customers you haven't been receiving payments from and then write to them saying that they need to amend the bank details on the standing order?
This would at least stop you losing any further money whilst the police take their time.
Kind regards, Becci
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Hi becci,
the ones we know about we have contacted.
it was going on for over 2 yrs that we know about, and there seem to be customers who were hidden from the DB completely.
some of these will have finished their contract and others we just wont know about unless they contact us for some reason.
some are suspicious but we are struggling to get hold of them as ex customers dont seem to be too interested in speaking to us... of course if we mentioned fraud they would... but we dont want to do that so we're a bit stuck :-\
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Hi becci,
the ones we know about we have contacted.
it was going on for over 2 yrs that we know about, and there seem to be customers who were hidden from the DB completely.
some of these will have finished their contract and others we just wont know about unless they contact us for some reason.
some are suspicious but we are struggling to get hold of them as ex customers dont seem to be too interested in speaking to us... of course if we mentioned fraud they would... but we dont want to do that so we're a bit stuck :-\
I agree, its not a good idea to mention fraud to your customers as this could cause them to be cautious about working with you in the future.
I don't mean to sound rude in asking - but if they aren't on your database then why are their windows still being cleaned? Surely they would just be missed off your round as said employee is no longer at your company?
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Hi becci,
the ones we know about we have contacted.
it was going on for over 2 yrs that we know about, and there seem to be customers who were hidden from the DB completely.
some of these will have finished their contract and others we just wont know about unless they contact us for some reason.
some are suspicious but we are struggling to get hold of them as ex customers dont seem to be too interested in speaking to us... of course if we mentioned fraud they would... but we dont want to do that so we're a bit stuck :-\
I agree, its not a good idea to mention fraud to your customers as this could cause them to be cautious about working with you in the future.
I don't mean to sound rude in asking - but if they aren't on your database then why are their windows still being cleaned? Surely they would just be missed off your round as said employee is no longer at your company?
good question..
It's actually from my domestic cleaning business where clients pay us a management fee by monthly standing order. so the staff member set up a new client, arrange a cleaner to go weekly (who gets paid directly), and hid the file. staff member was only person handling this business so easy for her to hide, and she did the monthly payment audit, so was able to hide it.
it couldnt happen in the same way with my WC clients
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You had an issue similar to this a few months back didn't you. Then you locked that thread after it was suggested its a silly thing (legally) to broadcast on a forum.
What happened in that instance?
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You had an issue similar to this a few months back didn't you. Then you locked that thread after it was suggested its a silly thing (legally) to broadcast on a forum.
What happened in that instance?
terminated the person's emplyment after disciplinary pricess
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You had an issue similar to this a few months back didn't you. Then you locked that thread after it was suggested its a silly thing (legally) to broadcast on a forum.
What happened in that instance?
terminated the person's emplyment after disciplinary pricess
Hmmm . . . . .
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Richard, sounds like you have had a bad run with employing people.
Could the work be done remotely? If so I would be happy to offer my services on a freelance basis, please email me if you would like to discuss this further.
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Richard, sounds like you have had a bad run with employing people.
Could the work be done remotely? If so I would be happy to offer my services on a freelance basis, please email me if you would like to discuss this further.
Thanks Becci. I had a bad egg :) still clearing up the mess. they were a left over from my early days when i didn't recruit professionally.
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at least you discovered it. i now look for the red flag signs ,shifty behaviour
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The amount must not be much has the cleaner got paid direct you will have lost little ,still fraud but not so bad
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The amount must not be much has the cleaner got paid direct you will have lost little ,still fraud but not so bad
over £1000 confirmed stolen, future business lost so far of £55 a month and suspected a number of other clients worth upwards from £400 each.
That's a lot of money to me.
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at least you discovered it. i now look for the red flag signs ,shifty behaviour
you're right. every days a lesson :)
i've learned not to give people the benefit of the doubt on morality. if they do something dodgy, the chance is they will do (or be doing) other dodgy things you are not aware of.
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at least you discovered it. i now look for the red flag signs ,shifty behaviour
you're right. every days a lesson :)
i've learned not to give people the benefit of the doubt on morality. if they do something dodgy, the chance is they will do (or be doing) other dodgy things you are not aware of.
years ago i went on a course with other lads at a london HQ of a security firm and at break time we all stood outside. somebody noticed a fancy lighter on a window sill ,asked around then decided to pocket it. iv wondered since if it was a set-up ,did the lad pocketing it get finished ,i never saw him again i do know that
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Your talking about it being a slow investigation. It will be further hampered in that Police will meet a production order made by a court to access her bank account. In oder to get a production order police will need to show the court reasonable evidence that the fraud has been committed and that there will be evidence held within that account. This needs to be more than just an allegation.
From what you describe you need to start banging on the table of your local plod as this is beyond the skill set of your average bobby and will need a financial investigator or at least a CID officer tp deal.
I would suggest that you make an organisational complaint in that it is not being investigated appropriately with due diligence in that you are still suffering losses .
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Your talking about it being a slow investigation. It will be further hampered in that Police will meet a production order made by a court to access her bank account. In oder to get a production order police will need to show the court reasonable evidence that the fraud has been committed and that there will be evidence held within that account. This needs to be more than just an allegation.
From what you describe you need to start banging on the table of your local plod as this is beyond the skill set of your average bobby and will need a financial investigator or at least a CID officer tp deal.
I would suggest that you make an organisational complaint in that it is not being investigated appropriately with due diligence in that you are still suffering losses .
Yes, complain to Professional Standards and wait up to a year or more for them to investigate. It won't surprise anyone to hear that whilst they are slow investigating anything without a pretty much assured conviction for a "flavour of the month" offence at the end, they are a lot slower investigating themselves.
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Its time for an overall of your business model. To many loopholes and not enough tight controls. If this workers can do this chances others might as well.
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i feel foe you Richard ,but am pleased you have told us your story.
some people will steal if they can. not only your money by the sounds of it.
Do whatever you can to get this scum.
Let the customers that he has stole know exactly who is cleaning there windows.
good luck.
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Your talking about it being a slow investigation. It will be further hampered in that Police will meet a production order made by a court to access her bank account. In oder to get a production order police will need to show the court reasonable evidence that the fraud has been committed and that there will be evidence held within that account. This needs to be more than just an allegation.
From what you describe you need to start banging on the table of your local plod as this is beyond the skill set of your average bobby and will need a financial investigator or at least a CID officer tp deal.
I would suggest that you make an organisational complaint in that it is not being investigated appropriately with due diligence in that you are still suffering losses .
Yes, complain to Professional Standards and wait up to a year or more for them to investigate. It won't surprise anyone to hear that whilst they are slow investigating anything without a pretty much assured conviction for a "flavour of the month" offence at the end, they are a lot slower investigating themselves.
Im Simply trying to offer constructive advice. There is some truth in what you say. Professional standards investigations are by their nature slower as they enter into depths that are beyond reproach. This has to be done as the country is filled with people who , through ignorance and an overpowering urge to lash out at the police for personal reasons, jump to the conclusion that Police will do a half assed job investigating one of their own !
Anyway Im not suggesting professional standards involvement in this job, Im suggesting the table gets banged to get this transferred to an investigator better able to deal with the job appropriately and try to stop further losses..
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Your talking about it being a slow investigation. It will be further hampered in that Police will meet a production order made by a court to access her bank account. In oder to get a production order police will need to show the court reasonable evidence that the fraud has been committed and that there will be evidence held within that account. This needs to be more than just an allegation.
From what you describe you need to start banging on the table of your local plod as this is beyond the skill set of your average bobby and will need a financial investigator or at least a CID officer tp deal.
I would suggest that you make an organisational complaint in that it is not being investigated appropriately with due diligence in that you are still suffering losses .
Yes, complain to Professional Standards and wait up to a year or more for them to investigate. It won't surprise anyone to hear that whilst they are slow investigating anything without a pretty much assured conviction for a "flavour of the month" offence at the end, they are a lot slower investigating themselves.
Im Simply trying to offer constructive advice. There is some truth in what you say. Professional standards investigations are by their nature slower as they enter into depths that are beyond reproach. This has to be done as the country is filled with people who , through ignorance and an overpowering urge to lash out at the police for personal reasons, jump to the conclusion that Police will do a half assed job investigating one of their own !
Anyway Im not suggesting professional standards involvement in this job, Im suggesting the table gets banged to get this transferred to an investigator better able to deal with the job appropriately and try to stop further losses..
thank you for your advice Tim. I have finished work now and have decided to let it drop whilst I'm off. Thanks for your email and I will get in touch when I'm back to pick your brains.
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This may come as a shock but frontline bobbies have no choice but investigate slowly..
They are allocated a crime to investigate it is theirs they are the investigating officer . They work shift so there is not a lot they will be able to do on nights or days off. this leaves days when're they can talk / deal with monday to friday ends such as banks etc. on a late shift they can talk to the people who work in their homes.. On top of this they have to respond to every call they are allocated to.. Oh and each individual cop is investigating in the region of 10 crimes at anyone time..
Add to this for fraud offences the disclosure legislation that has to be satisfied for the banks to release information makes it even slower.
Once upon a time fraud was dealt with by CID officer she don't have the burden of Shifts and responding to road accidents etc. But most CID officers are now tied up dealing with sexual offences. and traditional CID work like fraud, burglary and the like falls to uniformed cops..
Then throw into the mix the government has cut their resources, and that directly translates into officer numbers by 20%..
What happens on the TV is not representative of British policing..
I have to ask why are the bank not stopping transactions.. and if I recall there is a directive from the Home office that Banks are the prosecuting authority for fraud involving banks.. Not the police..
email me at windows@albrightandshiny.co.uk and Ill try and help you out best I can.. I know the system very well.
does make me laugh though, coz if you go and knock his teeth out, the Rozzas will be round in a flash to nick you and you'll be up before a man in a wig to receive your £1000 fine in no time!!!
I know the system very well too, poor old fellas. Overworked, underpaid, unappreciated and misunderstood. My heart bleeds for them...
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Isn't there some old gag goes something like...
'There's a burglar in my house'
'Sorry, we haven't got any men'
'Don't worry, I've shot him'
2 minutes later the place was swarming with cops
'Thought you'd shot someone?'
'Thought you didn't have any men...'
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Well the Police were finally able to get round to looking into the fraud, had the ex employee in and presented her with the evidence. She came clean and has provided police access to the bank statements. Over the past 3 years she has stolen £2090.05 from me, whilst working on a wage for me. The police man said the she was 'genuinely sorry' for her actions. Then said the matter was going to court and he would send me a form to see if I could get back 'some of the money'.
I replied to the officer that I am sure if she is 'genuinely sorry' she will make every effort to repay the money she has stolen as soon as possible. >:(
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Sorry she did it? Or sorry she got caught?
Glad you're sorted though.
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Ask to see her other bank account - if she has confesses to 2000 u can bet there is more to find.
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that sort of person needs to be duffed up in the cells in addition to the court fine. hopefully thatll happen to her
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Ask to see her other bank account - if she has confesses to 2000 u can bet there is more to find.
that's exactly what my sister said... i think you re right too.
i think from the police point of view they would need to get a judge order to investigate her other accounts, but considering her position in my company she had every opportunity.
i will email the police today and request that they investigate further.
thanks for that comment Ian :)
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Sorry she did it? Or sorry she got caught?
Glad you're sorted though.
Yeh I know. That P'd me off when I read the email from the Police. How does he know she genuinly regrets it? I mean I am assuming she has spent all the money that she has stolen over the past 3 years? She didn;t come forward and hand herself in. Does he mean she was crying or upset at times in the interview? Or did she say that she genuinely regretted it? I mean, you would say that wouldn't you... if you got caught >:(
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Of course she'd say that, so would you and so would I. I wouldn't be surprised about it Richard, she's defending herself.
I wonder what's gone wrong in her life. Perhaps she stole it because she was bored and got up one day and said to herself 'Feck it, I'm bored, I think I'll go screw Richard Isparkle over for a couple of K and wash my own sorry life down the pan'.
Or perhaps there's an underlying issue you're not aware of that drove her to it. Where she felt she didn't have a choice. I guess we'll never know. Least she won't do time. Not for that measly amount. It's only a weeks profit anyway :)
I remember when I was turned over to the tune of £1000 about 3 years ago. Company went down the pan. They would have known what was happening with the company finances months before they caved in. Why did they get me in to do their internals and external builders clean on the place knowing poor little of' Matt wouldn't be getting his hard earned money?
That's criminal too isn't it?
I wouldn't worry about it Richard, you'll survive, dust yourself down, pick yourself up and be grateful your not driven to that for whatever reason. Life's too short.
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Of course she'd say that, so would you and so would I. I wouldn't be surprised about it Richard, she's defending herself.
I wonder what's gone wrong in her life. Perhaps she stole it because she was bored and got up one day and said to herself 'Feck it, I'm bored, I think I'll go screw Richard Isparkle over for a couple of K and wash my own sorry life down the pan'.
Or perhaps there's an underlying issue you're not aware of that drove her to it. Where she felt she didn't have a choice. I guess we'll never know. Least she won't do time. Not for that measly amount. It's only a weeks profit anyway :)
I remember when I was turned over to the tune of £1000 about 3 years ago. Company went down the pan. They would have known what was happening with the company finances months before they caved in. Why did they get me in to do their internals and external builders clean on the place knowing poor little of' Matt wouldn't be getting his hard earned money?
That's criminal too isn't it?
I wouldn't worry about it Richard, you'll survive, dust yourself down, pick yourself up and be grateful your not driven to that for whatever reason. Life's too short.
I'm not worried about it. It's sad because it's someone I knew and trusted for the past 4-5 yrs. It is shocking for me to find out that she was stealing off me all this time.
Nothing drove her to it so to speak as we all have a choice about what we do and don't do.
She was paid an above average wage for her job in this area, and was given a lot of freedom to fit her job around her family life. for some reason she decided to commit fraud.
i am also not suprised that she told the police she was genuinly regretful. as you say, that is what you say when you are caught to defend yourself. what prickled me was that the police have said she was genuinly regretful, because they don't actually know this at all. she just said some words, but her actions show no such regret or remorse.
like you say, i will dust myself off, and learn from the experience to apply it to my business.
out of interest she was the employee i sacked a couple of months back for lying on her hours sheet. i am glad i sacked her at that point now and took a firm line on that.
you live, you learn :)
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Of course she's 'genuinely regretfull' but only after she's been caught.
Strange though that she wasn't 'genuinely regretfull' before getting caught out.
Must be a coincidence.
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Of course she'd say that, so would you and so would I. I wouldn't be surprised about it Richard, she's defending herself.
I wonder what's gone wrong in her life. Perhaps she stole it because she was bored and got up one day and said to herself 'Feck it, I'm bored, I think I'll go screw Richard Isparkle over for a couple of K and wash my own sorry life down the pan'.
Or perhaps there's an underlying issue you're not aware of that drove her to it. Where she felt she didn't have a choice. I guess we'll never know. Least she won't do time. Not for that measly amount. It's only a weeks profit anyway :)
I remember when I was turned over to the tune of £1000 about 3 years ago. Company went down the pan. They would have known what was happening with the company finances months before they caved in. Why did they get me in to do their internals and external builders clean on the place knowing poor little of' Matt wouldn't be getting his hard earned money?
That's criminal too isn't it?
I wouldn't worry about it Richard, you'll survive, dust yourself down, pick yourself up and be grateful your not driven to that for whatever reason. Life's too short.
Driven to it? So she's a victim too then. You can excuse everybody and anybody with that liberal fuzy logic. Maybe she's just a theiving scumbag who fancied nice holidays and never thought she'd be caught.
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I did imply that as well. You obviously missed that.
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I did imply that as well. You obviously missed that.
Don't know, just a strange vibe from your post like there is some underlying animosity towards the original poster. Probably just me seeing something that isn't there.
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I did imply that as well. You obviously missed that.
Don't know, just a strange vibe from your post like there is some underlying animosity towards the original poster. Probably just me seeing something that isn't there.
No mate I know Matt well, he is just factual and to the point and very rude ;)
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I did imply that as well. You obviously missed that.
Don't know, just a strange vibe from your post like there is some underlying animosity towards the original poster. Probably just me seeing something that isn't there.
No mate I know Matt well, he is just factual and to the point and very rude ;)
True, very true. Fatty. :-*
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The police feel sorry for her cos she is a woman and she was most Likely crying
If It was a man they wouldn't have commented