Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: wightsurf on November 17, 2013, 06:17:07 pm
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Has anyone fitted a DIY Diesel system in the Van ?
Been looking about and second hand water heaters seem cheap to buy.
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Has anyone fitted a DIY Diesel system in the Van ?
Been looking about and second hand water heaters seem cheap to buy.
Been messing on with something for a few years but nothing assembled yet. By the time I do it I will find the Thermo Top won't work anymore.
If you are looking at Webasto Thermo tops - be careful. The only ones we can used mustn't be vehicle specific. The ones that have come out of boats or universal are fine. However, the ones that a from boats would have been taken out because they would have been unreliable as they don't run on red diesel without coking up.
It could be that ones that come out of Rovers can also be used but are renowned for controller board failures. There is a guy on one of the Rover forums called French Mike who fixes them. He lives in France.
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Just been reading about this topic on the other forum although a few months old.
Was it you that mentioned about heater size and that the larger unit is being used ?
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why does red diesel effect them , its the exact same as the taxed diesel just dyed red.
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To be honest I have not got a clue about these and always thought they cost thousands. But after spending a couple of google hrs this evening im beginning to think I can do this for under £400.00
Any good links for reading and advise on heaters to used would be good.
I have 2 gas L5 in good order that I have been using but would like to turn to Diesel.
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This might be a stupid question but is there any reason I can not go and get one from the scrappy as there seems to be a lot of these webasto used in different types of car. My thinking is when it messes up just get another .
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Just been reading about this topic on the other forum although a few months old.
Was it you that mentioned about heater size and that the larger unit is being used ?
Probably. The 90 S is a more powerful heater but has a different burning configuration.
The Thermo Top is designed as an engine preheater. It runs on full burn until the coolant water temperature reaches 74 degrees C then reduces to half burn to 77 degrees C. If you draw heat off it down to 65 degrees is will then return to full burn. Once the temperature raises to 77 degrees c the heater turns off, job done. The problem with wfp is if we stop working the heater switches off, but has to restart when the heat is used. This takes battery power with each restart.
The 90 follows the same pattern (not sure when the full burn cut off point is) but goes onto reduced burn after that. The reduced burn is about a 1/3rd of full burn so produces less heat when compared to the Thermo Top. The Webasto 90S and ST are mainly designed as space heaters so will probably cope with wfp demands better.
I am planning to add a third water to water plate heat exchanger on my DIY system that will trigger a third pump at around 75 degrees c to keep the Thermo Top at 1/2 burn between 75 degrees and 65 degrees where full load operation kicks in again. The excess heat will be dumped into the water tank. That's the idea is to try to keep the heater running at 1/2 burn for extended periods of time well thats the plan anyway.
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why does red diesel effect them , its the exact same as the taxed diesel just dyed red.
Webasto have done extensive tests on red diesel and found that it is also a poor quality of diesel sold to the Marinas and causes excess coking up of the burner and heat exchanger. There is a report regarding this somewhere on the internet from them.
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why does red diesel effect them , its the exact same as the taxed diesel just dyed red.
When you buy diesel from a forecourt you can be sure that the pumps and tanks are well maintained and free from any contamination, the same can't be said for red diesel.
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This might be a stupid question but is there any reason I can not go and get one from the scrappy as there seems to be a lot of these webasto used in different types of car. My thinking is when it messes up just get another .
They have different PC boards. A Thermo Top unit taken from a BMW only responds to the Canbus or Wbus (language) instructions that the BMW ecu talks to it in. A Webasto taken from a Citroen C5 or C8 isn't interchangeable as it speaks a different language to the BMW unit. Everything is the same except for the electronics.
Manufacurers also program different setting into the ecu to achieve different things. A few years ago Range Rovers had the Thermo Top working as a preheater and a supplementary heater for European spec vehicles. In the UK, the UK spec vehicle was programmed as a supplementary heater only. British owners were having their Range Rover serviced in France to stop the British dealers reprogrammimg their RRs to British spec everytime their vehicle went into the garage, even if it was just to have new brake pads fitted.
There is a company in Germany (see German Ebay) that sells a Universal motherboard that would suit us for 130 Euros. You need to be able to use a soldering iron or have an electronics whizz do it for you. Once you have that pc board you can get any Webasto thermo top to work using it.
Another point to consider that you will usually have to buy a water pump, fuel pump, fuel piping, pipe stand, exhaust pipe and silencer, inlet pipe, wiring harness and electronic timer to get it to fire up. These items are expensive.
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I have seen a second hand complete kit for sale at £350.00
But to be honest im not sure what all the parts are that im looking at.
How does this system work ? as its not circulating the water around a engine how does the burner drop down in temp?
As the water is heated up does it get dumped into a holding tank from which we then pump the water to our wfp ?
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why does red diesel effect them , its the exact same as the taxed diesel just dyed red.
When you buy diesel from a forecourt you can be sure that the pumps and tanks are well maintained and free from any contamination, the same can't be said for red diesel.
My brother in law bought an Alfa 157? diesel about 5 years ago. He loving put diesel additives into the tank every time he filled up. Every 6 months he had to remove the dpf filter and wash it out as the engine management kicked the engine into limp home mode. Eventually he listened and very reluctantly stopped putting additives into his diesel, and he then didn't need to clean the dpf filter out again in the next 2 years before he traded it in on a 4 x 4.
The diesel they sell on Marinas for long boats doesn't need to be quality stuff. Those diesel engines that chug along are the furthest from high tech you could ever get.
There is a local wfp business that has a hot box connected up to a separate tank filled with red diesel bought from a supplier that sells it to the fishing industry. The exhaust though his van roof is so sooty that his white van roof is black.
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I have seen a second hand complete kit for sale at £350.00
But to be honest im not sure what all the parts are that im looking at.
How does this system work ? as its not circulating the water around a engine how does the burner drop down in temp?
As the water is heated up does it get dumped into a holding tank from which we then pump the water to our wfp ?
It has its own heating circuit. The water is heated, goes through a heat exchanger into a header tank and back to the heater. In the circuit is a water to water plate heat exchanger which has 2 seperate water circuits in it. The one is the hot water being generated by the diesel boiler and the other is the cold water being pumped from your tank through the heat exchanger, to your hose reel and on up to the brush. This cold water zaps heat from the heat exchanger and leaves the exchanger hot.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1384726822_PF Hot water system a.jpg)
The heat exchanger is above the heater and under the header tank. If you look carefully, the heat exchanger has 4 water pipes coupled to it. 2 are from the furnace and 2 are the circuit to the brush head.
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ok, thanks I now understand that bit.
Now is there different size heat exchangers and is there a min spec I should look for ? And how do you control the temp of water as you wfp pump is set at your own flow rate?
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I have seen a second hand complete kit for sale at £350.00
But to be honest im not sure what all the parts are that im looking at.
How does this system work ? as its not circulating the water around a engine how does the burner drop down in temp?
As the water is heated up does it get dumped into a holding tank from which we then pump the water to our wfp ?
That is the way I use mine, I circulate the hot water into my 650 litre tank. You have to start off with a low flow rate as the ambient water temp in the tank is cold, as the water in the tank gradually heats up you start to increase the flow rate. This works best for me as I use backpacks.
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This is another view of a heat exchanger
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ok, thanks I now understand that bit.
Now is there different size heat exchangers and is there a min spec I should look for ? And how do you control the temp of water as you wfp pump is set at your own flow rate?
Yes. This is what PureFreedom use.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WEBASTO-or-EBERSPACHER-Instant-Hot-Water-Heat-Exchanger-with-Mixer-Valve-/271200647299?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item3f24d17883#ht_1017wt_1141
I found a 20 plate heat exchanger 300mm long by 90mm wide for less than that off Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130977345127&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:3160#ht_198wt_1399
I plan to use something similar to this to keep the water temperature constant. The one I bought is adjustable.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLENDING-VALVE-15mm-INTA-MIX-THERMOSTATIC-MIXER-CONTROL-FOR-TAPS-SHOWERS-/230867666362?pt=UK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&hash=item35c0c905ba#ht_1095wt_1161
I also think a thermostatic shower mixer valve will also work well.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THERMOSTATIC-SHOWER-BAR-MIXER-VALVE-TAP-CHROME-/150842769850?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Bathroom_Shower_Units_PP&hash=item231eee01ba#ht_1824wt_1161
I started to make the first steel box to mount the exchangers in from angle iron - its still a long way from being finished.
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Thank you, you have been very helpful.
Tried looking for that motherboard, but no joy. Will have another look tomorrow .
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Thank you, you have been very helpful.
Tried looking for that motherboard, but no joy. Will have another look tomorrow .
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Aftermarket-STEUERGERAT-fur-Webasto-Thermo-Top-Z-C-E-ECU-/161150986213?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item258558e7e5#ht_1283wt_1399
They have also reprogrammed this board with slightly different characteristics that would suit us better than the original Webasto unit does.
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You may find this interesting.
http://www.thefreeheater.co.uk/index.html
I'm not sure it would work for us, but there are a couple of 'interesting' application videos. they show a water to water plate heat exchanger working.
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You can buy red diesel at Morrisons , do you think farmers would use red in £250 k combine if it damaged the engine,
We have also used it in a £27 k pressure washer for years no problem.
its the same
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Spruce , have you used one of these boards ? Do you know if I could isolate this in it's own box and run wires to the webasto ?
Ks cleaning, i'm I right in thinking you usepump you'd straight back into your main tank, so it goes through the webasto and back to the tank?
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You can buy red diesel at Morrisons , do you think farmers would use red in £250 k combine if it damaged the engine,
We have also used it in a £27 k pressure washer for years no problem.
its the same
Agree. I was referring to the problems Webasto diesel heaters had running on red diesel and their tests showed the quality of diesel the Marinas were buying didn't suit the internal workings of that heater. A search of the boating forums will bring up endless threads by frustrated posters highlighting the issues they experience. They don't ever mention a problem using the same diesel in the engines though.
The issues with Webasto heaters were increased when the heater was only being used to heat the hot water tank (calorifier). The heat exchanger inside these calorifiers consists of a short length of copper pipe which doesn't allow for efficient heat transfer. So the Webasto quickly reaches is operating temp and then switches off only to have to restart a few moments later.This doesn't allow for a clean burn without fuel quality considerations.
We are on the coast and it appears that most of the guys use a local supplier who sells fuel mainly to the fishing industry. Everyone I have spoken to points me in this direction. Our closest Morrisons doesn't sell red diesel.
I would imagine that the farmers buy it in bulk, have it delivered into their own storage tanks and fill their equipment as and when.
It has been hinted that the problem is that the Wabesto is too sophisticated for that market. But the few guys on here that run diesel heaters seem to have similar coking up issues with stop start cycling.
I haven’t heard of any bad reports on the IR Hurricane heaters that are made in Canada working in the same conditions, but they maybe because there aren’t many out there. A couple of wfp suppliers are supplying these Hurricane heaters into our industry and other posters on this forum who use them haven’t had any problems with them at all.
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Spruce , have you used one of these boards ? Do you know if I could isolate this in it's own box and run wires to the webasto ?
Ks cleaning, i'm I right in thinking you usepump you'd straight back into your main tank, so it goes through the webasto and back to the tank?
No I haven't used one of these boards. My heater was working fine when I last tested it. Somewhere in the internet was a step by step instruction on how to remove the faulty board from its frame and replace it with a new one. I searched the other day but couldn't find it.
There is the possibility of using the heater to heat the water directly in the tank which is very simple to do. However the cost is going to be high as you are heating a large amount of water (for me 650 litres) which will take a long time and wouldn't be cost effective. This is why heating on demand is best but the heater doesn't like short runs with lots of stopping and starting.
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Spruce , have you used one of these boards ? Do you know if I could isolate this in it's own box and run wires to the webasto ?
Ks cleaning, i'm I right in thinking you usepump you'd straight back into your main tank, so it goes through the webasto and back to the tank?
No I haven't used one of these boards. My heater was working fine when I last tested it. Somewhere in the internet was a step by step instruction on how to remove the faulty board from its frame and replace it with a new one. I searched the other day but couldn't find it.
There is the possibility of using the heater to heat the water directly in the tank which is very simple to do. However the cost is going to be high as you are heating a large amount of water (for me 650 litres) which will take a long time and wouldn't be cost effective. This is why heating on demand is best but the heater doesn't like short runs with lots of stopping and starting.
Found it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPQDnR43tWE&feature=youtu.be
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This thread has got me really interested , especially the free water heater .
I have thought about trying this for a while and have read about a window cleaner who used a similar setup to heat his tank of water up on the way to his first job , i think he had a fairly long drive to his work.
I am struggling to work out how it produces that much hot water with the engine switched off, must be a very efficient heat exchanger .
Sounds like it would work for window cleaners that drive between jobs but not for those that do five or six houses without moving (unless you leave engine running).
I do wonder though if taking the heat from the engine means that the engine is not staying warmed up and may result in more engine wear , lower efficiency etc or wether that would be negligible .
What do you think spruce ?
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This thread has got me really interested , especially the free water heater .
I have thought about trying this for a while and have read about a window cleaner who used a similar setup to heat his tank of water up on the way to his first job , i think he had a fairly long drive to his work.
I am struggling to work out how it produces that much hot water with the engine switched off, must be a very efficient heat exchanger .
Sounds like it would work for window cleaners that drive between jobs but not for those that do five or six houses without moving (unless you leave engine running).
I do wonder though if taking the heat from the engine means that the engine is not staying warmed up and may result in more engine wear , lower efficiency etc or wether that would be negligible .
What do you think spruce ?
The problem is with modern diesel engines is that they are very efficient and don't produce much heat. Our engines don't get up to operating temperature in the winter mornings due to the short distances we travel. His demonstrator car is an old 1.6 diesel Golf.
I find that the engine looses its heat anyway being parked up, so you may as well put that heat to some use. How good it would be is questionable. He would need a pump to circulate the water from the engine, through the heat exchanger and back to the block.
In the kit he shows an auxillary pump. On the video on the beach he shows a small pump in the water tank at the back, but that's not it. This point isn't very clear. What ever the case is, in a window cleaning application we would need a 12v circulation pump as we couldn't leave the engine running. (Your internal heater matrix is a water to air heat exchanger. If you switch the engine off but leave the circulation fan running, it doesn't take long before the air coming out gets cold.)
The water circulating through the engine will be treated with antifreeze so there wouldn't be a problem there. However, the water in the second circuit of the heat exchanger will be pure water. Any water in there will freeze and damage the heat exchanger. Even with antifreeze, our washer bottle always seems to freeze at some point during winter. Even if the heat exchanger was drained down, the passages in the heat exchanger are very small and I doubt you will get every drop of water out. That would be a big negative for me.
The reason I put the link up was to show how a water to water plate heater exchanger works TBH.
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So how does the webasto stop from freezing ? does it run at night on a timer ?
Also how much do these cost to run , say for 7 hours.
But with all the info you have supplied ,it now makes sense ,cheers.
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So how does the webasto stop from freezing ? does it run at night on a timer ?
Also how much do these cost to run , say for 7 hours.
But with all the info you have supplied ,it now makes sense ,cheers.
I think the PureFreedom ones are able to be programmed so the boiler kicks in at low temperatures. With the photo I included on this thread, the heating circuit, half of the heat exchanger and the header tank will be treated with anti freeze. Having a small frost heater inside the van to stop your equipment freezing up is still the best solution.
By using the diesel heater to prevent freezing equipment, you run the risk of the heater starting and stopping many times through the night and draining your battery. They can also be quite noisey so if this feature is used, it would be very important to have the silencer fitted so as not to disturb the neighbours.
According to Webasto, fuel consumption is about 1/2 a litre an hour on full power.
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You may find this interesting.
http://www.thefreeheater.co.uk/index.html
I'm not sure it would work for us, but there are a couple of 'interesting' application videos. they show a water to water plate heat exchanger working.
I am very impressed with this kit Spruce.
Thanks for sharing and for that price, I am sure, some one will come up with a way of fitting it to suite water fed poles system.
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You may find this interesting.
http://www.thefreeheater.co.uk/index.html
I'm not sure it would work for us, but there are a couple of 'interesting' application videos. they show a water to water plate heat exchanger working.
I am very impressed with this kit Spruce.
Thanks for sharing and for that price, I am sure, some one will come up with a way of fitting it to suite water fed poles system.
Its simple really - just fit it the same way he did it with his Golf and the shower. The only thing you would need to be aware of is which way the coolant water flows through the heat exchanger when driven by the engines water pump. You then need to mount the auxillary pump so when it works it pumps the water in the same direction.
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You may find this interesting.
http://www.thefreeheater.co.uk/index.html
I'm not sure it would work for us, but there are a couple of 'interesting' application videos. they show a water to water plate heat exchanger working.
I am very impressed with this kit Spruce.
Thanks for sharing and for that price, I am sure, some one will come up with a way of fitting it to suite water fed poles system.
Its simple really - just fit it the same way he did it with his Golf and the shower. The only thing you would need to be aware of is which way the coolant water flows through the heat exchanger when driven by the engines water pump. You then need to mount the auxillary pump so when it works it pumps the water in the same direction.
Thats amazing, well the wobasto guys going to have to drop their prices :)
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So how does the webasto stop from freezing ? does it run at night on a timer ?
Also how much do these cost to run , say for 7 hours.
But with all the info you have supplied ,it now makes sense ,cheers.
The heater will fire up when the temperature nears freezing, this will not protect your RO or hoses tho so I still use an oil filled radiator. I run mine for about 2-3 hours then I have a tank of hot water, if it's a really cold day I heat it up again at lunch time, half an hour does this as the water is already hot.
I have twin pumps, going to outside ports, between pump 1 and port 1 I have a stop valve, so the water can go directly into the tank without going to outside port. I run radiator hose from port 2 back into the tank.
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KS Cleaning
Did you fit your own webasto ? Also what unit do you have?
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KS Cleaning
Did you fit your own webasto ? Also what unit do you have?
No purefreedom fitted it, I have the thermo 90 ST
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Can you not just use 1000 watts inverter 12v to 240v and plugin a garage, greenhouse tube heater they run on very low 50 watts power..
Surely this is possible no?!?!?
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It wouldn't be sufficient to keep the van warm on sub zero temps
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It would seem in the boating world some people are finding the webasto to run a lot better by mixing diesel mix with kerosen50/50
Spruce do you know anything of this ?
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ok, thanks I now understand that bit.
Now is there different size heat exchangers and is there a min spec I should look for ? And how do you control the temp of water as you wfp pump is set at your own flow rate?
Yes. This is what PureFreedom use.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WEBASTO-or-EBERSPACHER-Instant-Hot-Water-Heat-Exchanger-with-Mixer-Valve-/271200647299?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item3f24d17883#ht_1017wt_1141
Spruce
Could this mixer valve be fitted to a webasto heat exchanger already fitted to a system?
Steve
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Here is the hurricane heater , supposed to run on red diesel etc with no problems and be for for intermittent use .
http://www.dieselheating.com
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How much , does anyone know ?
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there are prices at boat chandlers for their boat heating versions , i would imagine this version should be cheaper as it doesn't ned the remote control etc
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just out of interest , what part of the island are you from?
I used to live there and still have family in east cowes.
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The Capital - Newport ;D
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Are the two crappy little nightclubs still there ?
one by the library was called 2bs and then there was booker t's by the church?
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The Church is now ummm, a night club lol, or was ,think it shut down and reopened.
2bs has changedhands and names sooo many times now I cant remember what it was last called.
As always things are pretty much the same, mind you we are trying to catch the mainland up with traffic lights ;D
And still ripping everyone off on ferry charges !
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my son lives over there and i must have spent many thousands coming over to the island over the last ten years -rip off and crap service but there is no alternative.
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It would seem in the boating world some people are finding the webasto to run a lot better by mixing diesel mix with kerosen50/50
Spruce do you know anything of this ?
I don't, sorry. At one time the only mixture that Webasto seemed OK with was a 50/50 mix of diesel and biodiesel. I see that that ratio has been reduced in the latest brochures to 20% biodiesel and 80% diesel. They don't say anything about Kerosene/paraffin. They use the name diesel in the Marine brochures - not Red Diesel for the UK.
Hurricane say that their unit will run on everything including Kerosene and gas oil (Red Diesel).
On one of the forums a 'marine heating engineer' says that he has failures with all makes of diesel heaters including Hurricane.
What he won't know is what the proportion of heater failures are when compared to units in service. For example, if that service engineer is called to repair 50 Webasto faulty units, then he may conclude that these Webasto heaters aren't very good. In the same time he may have to attend to 3 Hurricane heaters. But if there are 1000 Webasto's in service and 10 Hurricanes, then you have to conclude the Webasto is a better unit. The heating engineer doesn't see the whole picture.
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The one thing I do know is , you mention the word boat and the price goes up.
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This is another view of a heat exchanger
Could a mixer valve be used on this type heater exchanger to adjust water temperature ?
Steve
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This is another view of a heat exchanger
Could a mixer valve be used on this type heater exchanger to adjust water temperature ?
Steve
Definitely. You need to be able to regulate the temperature automatically going to the brush and the mixer valve is one of the best ways of doing this.
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Spruce or anyone who may know,
With mixer valve fitted to heat exchanger, should the water flow and pressure remain roughly the same?
Steve
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Here is the hurricane heater , supposed to run on red diesel etc with no problems and be for for intermittent use .
http://www.dieselheating.com
I use to use one of them ITR diesel heaters. Heats the water to about 60 degrees. After a while the heater does start to produce smoke at the exhaust point. I use to run mine on red diesel from a separate small fuel tank solely to run red diesel for the heater.
Another option is a lot more complicated but uses similar principles by installing a twin coil indirect boat calorifier tank and you obtain the free heat from the van's radiator which is circulated through the twin coils inside the calorifier tank along the same principles as a glorified, well insulated radiator which heats up the stored DI water stored inside the calorifer.
You circulate the heated DI water from the calorifier to your wfp tank with a simple 12 volt pump to add more heat to your wfp tank which then pumps more replacement cold water back into the calorifer tank which can then be heated again. Only warning with this is you need car radiator hoses for the the pipes connected to the twin coil fittings as they get up to about 90 degrees. The heated DI water can easily reach 90 degrees if left running for a considerable time as well.
I have insulated all my hoses and my WFP tank so any heat put in my tank is about 80 percent retained over 24 hours. I don't use hot water anymore as I find 20-38 degrees is sufficient to remove most soiled windows quickly without the risk of cracking sealed window units in extremely cold winter months.
If you take the time to google heat sources there is a wealth of information there for the taking like I had to do quite a few years back.
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Spruce or anyone who may know,
With mixer valve fitted to heat exchanger, should the water flow and pressure remain roughly the same?
Steve
When I tested mine out I found very little difference - it was hardly noticable. I was concerned about this as Nat Jones 'threw' his off when he tried it. I have a 1/2" Saracen C20253 unit with non return valves on the hot and cold inlet side.
My only concern with this valve is that it is to spec TMV3 which is designed primarily as a anti hot water scalding device for the NHS to be used in hospitals. My feeling in that it hasn't a low enough water temperature adjustment for our winter needs. I have also considered a shower mixer valve as some of them can be adjusted down to 20 degrees. They are easier to operate IMO as well.
I haven't found the supplier of the one supplied in the 'free heat' unit - it appears to be the same mixer valve as used on this heat exchanger
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WEBASTO-or-EBERSPACHER-Instant-Hot-Water-Heat-Exchanger-with-Mixer-Valve-/271200647299?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item3f24d17883#ht_995wt_1399
£89.65 seems rather expensive for this mixer valve although it is the one used by the diesel heaters supplied by some suppliers.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WEBASTO-or-EBERSPACHER-Instant-Hot-Water-Heat-Exchanger-Mixer-Valve-Kit-/290957122518?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item43be655bd6#ht_882wt_1399
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Here is the hurricane heater , supposed to run on red diesel etc with no problems and be for for intermittent use .
http://www.dieselheating.com
I use to use one of them ITR diesel heaters. Heats the water to about 60 degrees. After a while the heater does start to produce smoke at the exhaust point. I use to run mine on red diesel from a separate small fuel tank solely to run red diesel for the heater.
Another option is a lot more complicated but uses similar principles by installing a twin coil indirect boat calorifier tank and you obtain the free heat from the van's radiator which is circulated through the twin coils inside the calorifier tank along the same principles as a glorified, well insulated radiator which heats up the stored DI water stored inside the calorifer.
You circulate the heated DI water from the calorifier to your wfp tank with a simple 12 volt pump to add more heat to your wfp tank which then pumps more replacement cold water back into the calorifer tank which can then be heated again. Only warning with this is you need car radiator hoses for the the pipes connected to the twin coil fittings as they get up to about 90 degrees. The heated DI water can easily reach 90 degrees if left running for a considerable time as well.
I have insulated all my hoses and my WFP tank so any heat put in my tank is about 80 percent retained over 24 hours. I don't use hot water anymore as I find 20-38 degrees is sufficient to remove most soiled windows quickly without the risk of cracking sealed window units in extremely cold winter months.
If you take the time to google heat sources there is a wealth of information there for the taking like I had to do quite a few years back.
I looked at using a calorifier has a heat source. I wanted my diesel heater to heat the contents in the tank and use to heat exchanger in the calorifier to heat the water to the brush head. I contacted each calorfier manufacturer and none believed the heat exchanger would 'zap' the heat quick enough even using the twin coils in series.
This is a big issue with the boating world as the diesel heater produces more heat than the heat exchangers in the calorifier will transfer which causes the boilers to cycle. They also all advise that heating a calorifier with engine coolant will heat the hot water in 20 minutes. This is rubbish.
Another issue is that you have to travel some miles to heat that water up - most of us don't. My van rarely gets to normal operating temperature in the winter.
Another point in using the calorifier as a heat source is the anount of antifreeze needed to protect the calorifier is quite a lot. Antifreeze is rather expensive - 5 litres cost me £17.99 from our local parts supplier.
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It would seem in the boating world some people are finding the webasto to run a lot better by mixing diesel mix with kerosen50/50
Spruce do you know anything of this ?
Webasto do not recommend you run the unit on kerosene. It is some of the marine suppliers that have suggested its okay to use kerosene in Webasto heaters.
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The antifreeze for the calorifier is what goes through the vans radiator which you would normally add in the winter anyway, think you may be a little confused how to set it up properly for waterfed use. I can assure you if you insulate everything properly you can gain sufficient heat for purpose of window cleaning
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The antifreeze for the calorifier is what goes through the vans radiator which you would normally add in the winter anyway, think you may be a little confused how to set it up properly for waterfed use. I can assure you if you insulate everything properly you can gain sufficient heat for purpose of window cleaning
I understood what you had in mind with the twin coil heat exchangers. ;) You would utilise the engine heat through the one coil and the other is used the heat the water in the wfp tank. Using the engine heat wouldn't require that much more antifreeze. We wouldn't do enough mileage to warm a calorifier, so in our case it would be a waste of time.
I was just memtioning that I had thought of using the whole calorifier as a heat source; so in effect using the unit the wrong way round. So in this case I wanted to use the diesel heater to heat the whole 22 or more litres in the calorifier, and this would require the addition of a lot of antifreeze.
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For Spruce:
Think you understand where I'm coming from. I would use a 75 litre calorifier tank, a good quality boat version not the cheaper versions on ebay as they have twice as many fins inside the calorifier to distribute the heat to the stored water better. I insulated the hoses running from the radiator to the calorifier running underneath the vans floorpan as a huge amount of heat is wasted with the car radiator hoses. Insulated my wfp tank to the max so all heat is kept hot all day long and overnight.
A lot of my work is between 20-45 mins away from where I live in the more affluent areas but all compacted into mini rounds which take between 1 and 7 working days to complete so my engine would reach full temperature easily so I was able to take advantage of the free heat from the radiator.
I was looking at fitting a DIY solar water heater on the roof rack for summer use but never got the time to mess around at it but I did it for my transfer tank by mounting two DIY water solar panels on the garage roof which heated the water up before being pumped into van WFP tank.
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For Spruce:
Think you understand where I'm coming from. I would use a 75 litre calorifier tank, a good quality boat version not the cheaper versions on ebay as they have twice as many fins inside the calorifier to distribute the heat to the stored water better. I insulated the hoses running from the radiator to the calorifier running underneath the vans floorpan as a huge amount of heat is wasted with the car radiator hoses. Insulated my wfp tank to the max so all heat is kept hot all day long and overnight.
A lot of my work is between 20-45 mins away from where I live in the more affluent areas but all compacted into mini rounds which take between 1 and 7 working days to complete so my engine would reach full temperature easily so I was able to take advantage of the free heat from the radiator.
I was looking at fitting a DIY solar water heater on the roof rack for summer use but never got the time to mess around at it but I did it for my transfer tank by mounting two DIY water solar panels on the garage roof which heated the water up before being pumped into van WFP tank.
Personally I would try fitting a water to water plate heat exchanger and heating the water directly in the wfp tank. This will cut the calorifier out all together.
Overseas I worked with a guy who had an big indoor swimming pool. He had black pvc coiled pipes on the roof of an outside single garage and that kept the water in his pool at about 22 degrees all through the winter. During summer he bypassed the system. The house was built on the side of a hill covering 3 stories and the heat of the pool kept the house warm as well.
This was in Johannesburg with a fairly warmish winter day temperature of around 17 to 18 degrees, although night temperature would drop to freezing.
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water to water plate heat exchanger. Any chance you can point me in the right direction?
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water to water plate heat exchanger. Any chance you can point me in the right direction?
There is a link on these threads.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WEBASTO-or-EBERSPACHER-Instant-Hot-Water-Heat-Exchanger-with-Mixer-Valve-/271200647299?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item3f24d17883#ht_1017wt_958
The plate heat exchanger is the bottom section.
To explain how these work have a look at this website.
http://www.dudadiesel.com/heat_exchangers.php
Wort chillers are sold in the States for home brewing, but the principle is exactly the same. In their case they are taking very hot wort and chilling it using tap water and a heat exchanger.
In this instance the focus is on reducing the temperature of the wort and sending the now hot cooling water to waste. You want to pass hot water (Wort) from your engine cooling system and remove the heat from it before returning it to the engine. The removed heat is past into the water circuit from the WPF tank and returned as warm water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTaB8MClPH4
The principle is the same as the heat exchanger used on the free heat website.
http://www.thefreeheater.co.uk/index.html
There is a video of his girlfriend showering. You would be doing exactly the same thing but the only difference is the warm shower water is being returned to the tank and not dumped on the road.
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i Think it would be possible to diy a diesel hot water system for around £1000
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WEBASTO-THERMO-TOP-C-12V-5KW-DIESEL-MERCEDES-BMW-CAMPER-BOAT-WATER-HEATER-KIT-/121031990604?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Other&hash=item1c2e119d4c
700 + postage for a new 5kw webasto with pump etc .
would need a heat exchanger , header tanks and pipework etc .
the kit has a timer but that could just be replaced with a switch .
or you could use the timer to stop the van freezing in winter (as long as you have a good high capacity battery)
I would plumb it so that hot pure water can be recirculated to the tank when necessary.
Temperature would be controlled by a mixer valve .
You could do it even cheaper with secondhand parts.