Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: PureClean Window Cleaning Ltd on February 28, 2013, 07:59:10 pm
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Can anyone shed any light why it happened? its nearly 2 yrs old, variflow from cleaning spot, analogue.
it had 2 fuses, 1 from the positive off the battery, and one just before the controller, both 10amp.
it did say it should have a 7.5amp fuse, could that be the reason?
my last controller broke, it didnt melt, but there was a burn mark on the circuit board.
i did wire this controller myself, i connected it to the main battery to charge it, i never noticed it getting charged, i had to bring it in every night. the battery is newish, quite a large one.
thanks for your help in advance.
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Did you have both fuses on the same cable? The red one from between the battery and controller?
If they were both in the same line it would need 20 amps to take out the fuse.
The PCB is designed to take a maximum current of 10ams it sounds to me as if you have overloaded the controller. and taken out the main processor
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not sure will check tomoz. thanks.
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Did you have both fuses on the same cable? The red one from between the battery and controller?
If they were both in the same line it would need 20 amps to take out the fuse.
The PCB is designed to take a maximum current of 10ams it sounds to me as if you have overloaded the controller. and taken out the main processor
that dont sound right at all, a 10amp fuse will blow at any amp's over 10amp, no matter how many you have in a line, the wire in the fuse hasnt changed, its still the same.
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Ian! R C property doesnt know what you do for a living ;)
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Can anyone shed any light why it happened? its nearly 2 yrs old, variflow from cleaning spot, analogue.
it had 2 fuses, 1 from the positive off the battery, and one just before the controller, both 10amp.
it did say it should have a 7.5amp fuse, could that be the reason?
my last controller broke, it didnt melt, but there was a burn mark on the circuit board.
i did wire this controller myself, i connected it to the main battery to charge it, i never noticed it getting charged, i had to bring it in every night. the battery is newish, quite a large one.
thanks for your help in advance.
10amp fuse can and will kill a controller did two of mine (supplier fail), 7.5 is what you need I learnt this the hard way going against what they said!!!, half the new and older people supplying these type of things just sell you it not caring, same as a water softener what's that all about, save you money and cost you thousands it annoys me loads over complication to the highest degree!!
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Guy on ere made one £9
Buy one !!!
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Ian! R C property doesnt know what you do for a living ;)
Yer works for spring.
Still don't explain how a single 10amp fuse knows that another 10amp fuse is fitted at other end of wire and the know not to blow at anything above 10amps.
The wire in the fuse it rated to blow at anything over 10amp, you don't change that wire in that fuse so it will always be rated at 10amp.
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Ian! R C property doesnt know what you do for a living ;)
Yer works for spring.
Still don't explain how a single 10amp fuse knows that another 10amp fuse is fitted at other end of wire and the know not to blow at anything above 10amps.
The wire in the fuse it rated to blow at anything over 10amp, you don't change that wire in that fuse so it will always be rated at 10amp.
I wondered the same thing myself. I didn't make sense to me at the time.
Kleenkleen was an autoelectrician and I see he didn't comment either way.
The easiest way to fry a controller is to wire it up incorrectly - Varistream warn that do this will make the controller unrepaireable in their instruction manual. It can easily happen though especially if you swop batteries around to charge them.
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So what is the fuse actually for?
That may sound a daft question but our kettle went bang recently even though it had the right fuse in the plug.
Could be that it was the same type of fault with the pump controler. i.e. a fault that for some reason doesn't blow the fuse.
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So what is the fuse actually for?
That may sound a daft question but our kettle went bang recently even though it had the right fuse in the plug.
Could be that it was the same type of fault with the pump controler. i.e. a fault that for some reason doesn't blow the fuse.
that could of just been water getting into the electrics of the kettle,
so thinking about it it could be one reason, electrics dont like damp! could cause a short and burn out!
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A fuse in any appliance be it Dc or AC is to protect against a current spike exceeding the manufactures maximum load rating for that appliance. In the case of the control the maximum load rating is 7.5amps.
Current higher than 7.5 amps is likely to cause the copper circuits on the board to overheat and put the circuit at risk of burning.
Most batteries are 85 to 110 AH so there is a potential to exceed the maximum operating current of the controller. The controller draws miiliamps of current sufficient to power the processor the remaining current passes across the control to the pump. The pump account for almost all the current drawn from the pump
Fitting a higher rated fuse than recommended has allowed higher current to pass across the board than its maximum load rating. The resulting heat has melted the control.
There are a number of factors which could cause a pump to draw a sudden current spike over 7.5amps.
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A fuse in any appliance be it Dc or AC is to protect against a current spike exceeding the manufactures maximum load rating for that appliance. In the case of the control the maximum load rating is 7.5amps.
Current higher than 7.5 amps is likely to cause the copper circuits on the board to overheat and put the circuit at risk of burning.
Most batteries are 85 to 110 AH so there is a potential to exceed the maximum operating current of the controller. The controller draws miiliamps of current sufficient to power the processor the remaining current passes across the control to the pump. The pump account for almost all the current drawn from the pump
Fitting a higher rated fuse than recommended has allowed higher current to pass across the board than its maximum load rating. The resulting heat has melted the control.
There are a number of factors which could cause a pump to draw a sudden current spike over 7.5amps.
nice answer and explanation about it.
could you explain what you mean with this please as it has me confused on how 2 10amp fuses in line will need 20amps to blow them as you stated before?? cheers
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It will depend on weather the fuses are in series or in parallel.
If in series Then the short would blow the 1st 10 amp fuse it hits however if the fuses are in parallel then you effectively have a 20 amp fuse.
I suspect due to the level of damage you describe the fuses were in parallel as it would need a lot of heat to melt the board.
Cheers
Ian
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It will depend on weather the fuses are in series or in parallel.
If in series Then the short would blow the 1st 10 amp fuse it hits however if the fuses are in parallel then you effectively have a 20 amp fuse.
I suspect due to the level of damage you describe the fuses were in parallel as it would need a lot of heat to melt the board.
Cheers
Ian
ok thanks for clearing that up,
so if they run both in line the first one would blow and thats it,
but if they was side by side then the 2 10apm rated fuses become a 20amp fuse, so if there is a power surge of 15 amps then that wont blow either of the 10amp rated fues?
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It will depend on weather the fuses are in series or in parallel.
If in series Then the short would blow the 1st 10 amp fuse it hits however if the fuses are in parallel then you effectively have a 20 amp fuse.
I suspect due to the level of damage you describe the fuses were in parallel as it would need a lot of heat to melt the board.
Cheers
Ian
ok thanks for clearing that up,
so if they run both in line the first one would blow and thats it,
but if they was side by side then the 2 10apm rated fuses become a 20amp fuse, so if there is a power surge of 15 amps then that wont blow either of the 10amp rated fues?
Yes thats puts it nicely. In your case I suspect the spike was some where between 10 - 18 amps.
Cheers
Ian
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It will depend on weather the fuses are in series or in parallel.
If in series Then the short would blow the 1st 10 amp fuse it hits however if the fuses are in parallel then you effectively have a 20 amp fuse.
I suspect due to the level of damage you describe the fuses were in parallel as it would need a lot of heat to melt the board.
Cheers
Ian
ok thanks for clearing that up,
so if they run both in line the first one would blow and thats it,
but if they was side by side then the 2 10apm rated fuses become a 20amp fuse, so if there is a power surge of 15 amps then that wont blow either of the 10amp rated fues?
Yes thats puts it nicely. In your case I suspect the spike was some where between 10 - 18 amps.
Cheers
Ian
wasnt my controller, was just interested about the fuse layout etc.
cheers
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I bought one from the cleaning warehouse other day with the charging faculty. Will have to check it has a 7.5 amp fuse and not higher.
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Ian,
BTW while we are on the subject of these controllers i want to mount mine on a plate next to tank by screwing it on. No mounting screws came with it or anything but there is 2 small holes at the rear. Do you have to open the unit to mount it? I don't want it to invalidate the warranty.
It is a cleaning warehouse one however i believe spring just produce these on there behalf..
Dave
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Without seeing the exact wiring set up it would be hard to say what has caused this 'meldown'.
Always use the correct fuse.
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I still can't get my head around this fuse explanation.
I think I will order some inline fuses, join 2 of them together in parallel and then join those 2 to a single fuse. If I put a 10 amp fuse in each 'parellel' wired fuse holder and a 15 amp in the last fuse holder.
If what Ian is saying is true then the 15 amp fuse should blow if I short it out - am I right?
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I still can't get my head around this fuse explanation.
I think I will order some inline fuses, join 2 of them together in parallel and then join those 2 to a single fuse. If I put a 10 amp fuse in each 'parellel' wired fuse holder and a 15 amp in the last fuse holder.
If what Ian is saying is true then the 15 amp fuse should blow if I short it out - am I right?
took me a while to get it,
if you have 2 of the same fuses next to each other with the same wire length then the current will be shared between them so if you put a 10amp charge up the wires then 5amps will be going up each wire,
or putting it in another way, one pump 2 hoses! same amount of water flowing in both but just less and slower.
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I still can't get my head around this fuse explanation.
I think I will order some inline fuses, join 2 of them together in parallel and then join those 2 to a single fuse. If I put a 10 amp fuse in each 'parellel' wired fuse holder and a 15 amp in the last fuse holder.
If what Ian is saying is true then the 15 amp fuse should blow if I short it out - am I right?
took me a while to get it,
if you have 2 of the same fuses next to each other with the same wire length then the current will be shared between them so if you put a 10amp charge up the wires then 5amps will be going up each wire,
or putting it in another way, one pump 2 hoses! same amount of water flowing in both but just less and slower.
;D ;D
The first thing I also thought of was that cleaner who recently though that if he put 2 pumps in series he would get twice the flow or was it twice the pressure.
I can't see why anybody would even dream about putting two seperate fuses together in parallel in the circuit to his controller from the battery. IMHO that would take a fair amount of skill to do that. That level of skill would also override that action.
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I still can't get my head around this fuse explanation.
I think I will order some inline fuses, join 2 of them together in parallel and then join those 2 to a single fuse. If I put a 10 amp fuse in each 'parellel' wired fuse holder and a 15 amp in the last fuse holder.
If what Ian is saying is true then the 15 amp fuse should blow if I short it out - am I right?
took me a while to get it,
if you have 2 of the same fuses next to each other with the same wire length then the current will be shared between them so if you put a 10amp charge up the wires then 5amps will be going up each wire,
or putting it in another way, one pump 2 hoses! same amount of water flowing in both but just less and slower.
;D ;D
The first thing I also thought of was that cleaner who recently though that if he put 2 pumps in series he would get twice the flow or was it twice the pressure.
I can't see why anybody would even dream about putting two seperate fuses together in parallel in the circuit to his controller from the battery. IMHO that would take a fair amount of skill to do that. That level of skill would also override that action.
oh yer i can remember that,
yer it is a bit more of a technical way of doing it, but in the right situation im sure it is better, but with the controllers and pumps simple is better!
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Ian,
BTW while we are on the subject of these controllers i want to mount mine on a plate next to tank by screwing it on. No mounting screws came with it or anything but there is 2 small holes at the rear. Do you have to open the unit to mount it? I don't want it to invalidate the warranty.
It is a cleaning warehouse one however i believe spring just produce these on there behalf..
Dave
Dave to mount the control as described you will need to remove the front panel. The for screws are 1/4 turn and are spring loaded. turn the head and it will pop up. pull the tails through the gromit to give you space to reach the to mounting holes on the back of the box.
Pop the PCB and face plate back on then turn the 1/4 screws. I would suggest that the control is disconnected from the battery when you do this.
Also with the charger you will need to fit a fuse into each life between the Leisure battery (Red cable) and in the orange cable between the Vehicle battery and control.
The charger PCB is rated to a 10 amp Maximum so it is supplied with 10 amp fuses
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Dave to mount the control as described you will need to remove the front panel. The for screws are 1/4 turn and are spring loaded. turn the head and it will pop up. pull the tails through the gromit to give you space to reach the to mounting holes on the back of the box.
Pop the PCB and face plate back on then turn the 1/4 screws. I would suggest that the control is disconnected from the battery when you do this.
Also with the charger you will need to fit a fuse into each life between the Leisure battery (Red cable) and in the orange cable between the Vehicle battery and control.
The charger PCB is rated to a 10 amp Maximum so it is supplied with 10 amp fuses
Thanks Ian,
Just one last question... it says to wire it through the pressure switch? what does that actually mean. Ive only ever used veristream before and that was an old one and that used to say disconnect the pressure switch. Am using it with a shurflo pump.
Thanks
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Dave to mount the control as described you will need to remove the front panel. The for screws are 1/4 turn and are spring loaded. turn the head and it will pop up. pull the tails through the gromit to give you space to reach the to mounting holes on the back of the box.
Pop the PCB and face plate back on then turn the 1/4 screws. I would suggest that the control is disconnected from the battery when you do this.
Also with the charger you will need to fit a fuse into each life between the Leisure battery (Red cable) and in the orange cable between the Vehicle battery and control.
The charger PCB is rated to a 10 amp Maximum so it is supplied with 10 amp fuses
Thanks Ian,
Just one last question... it says to wire it through the pressure switch? what does that actually mean. Ive only ever used veristream before and that was an old one and that used to say disconnect the pressure switch. Am using it with a shurflo pump.
Thanks
Dave have a look at this image
http://www.thecleaningwarehouse.co.uk/100-psi-shurflo-12v-water-delivery-pump-5lmin-908-p.asp
The two red wires run the length of the pump connected the pressure switch is in line. With the Varistream you would have disconnected these.
Our control is designed to manage the pressure switch in a different way and we recommend it is connected.
Hope this helps
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thanks very much ian,
I will leave it as it is then.
Dave
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Hi Ian,
If you manage to see this, i have wired all this up yesterday i have the one with a charger built in and its coming chg on the display when the engine is running which is great as i wanted to make sure it this was working before anything else.
haven't had time to do anything else yet so i am going to calibrate it tomorrow i have watched the auto cal video online it says connect your water fed pole up. Im using 60 meters of 6mm microbore hose is it best to fully extend the hose out 60 meters as well? before auto calibrating the controller.
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Hi Ian,
If you manage to see this, i have wired all this up yesterday i have the one with a charger built in and its coming chg on the display when the engine is running which is great as i wanted to make sure it this was working before anything else.
haven't had time to do anything else yet so i am going to calibrate it tomorrow i have watched the auto cal video online it says connect your water fed pole up. Im using 60 meters of 6mm microbore hose is it best to fully extend the hose out 60 meters as well? before auto calibrating the controller.
Personally, I would calibrate it with the hose fully wound on the reel. It needs a little more pressure this way and its not always you pull all your hose out off the reel.
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Hi Ian,
If you manage to see this, i have wired all this up yesterday i have the one with a charger built in and its coming chg on the display when the engine is running which is great as i wanted to make sure it this was working before anything else.
haven't had time to do anything else yet so i am going to calibrate it tomorrow i have watched the auto cal video online it says connect your water fed pole up. Im using 60 meters of 6mm microbore hose is it best to fully extend the hose out 60 meters as well? before auto calibrating the controller.
Personally, I would calibrate it with the hose fully wound on the reel. It needs a little more pressure this way and its not always you pull all your hose out off the reel.
To a point Spruce is right there is no need to pull all the hose off the reel when running the auto cal. I would suggest that you attach your longest pole and take some hose of the reel this is to allow a little expansion in the hose wall.
So why calibrate the control to a pump?
What we are doing is telling the control what the maximum pressure the system normally operates at. To get a good flow at the brush head the system is probably running between 40 - 70 PSI. So the control knows that the normal max level is 70 PSI. When a user stops the water flow the pump will attempt to push against the restriction increasing the pressure above 70 PSI the pump see,s this sudden rise and stops the pump. This is what we refer to as DEAD END.
During this DE (flow stopped period) the controller periodically retests the pressure at the pump. When the restriction is removed the pressure falls back below the 70PSI maximum and the control restarts the pump at the preset flow. Hence the need to set the calibration to the longest pole which requires the greater pressure.
The control is designed to stop the pump before the pump pressure switch activates where the water flow has been stopped.
I feel there is a need to give a little more detail in some areas as understanding why what where when and how could be very useful.
Ian
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Thanks ian and spruce
I am going to have a good play with it again tomorrow.