Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Pure Glass on January 23, 2013, 09:41:19 pm
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Had a hot system fitted nov'11. Used everyday till may '12, then use for conny roof/fascia jobs through the summer
Started using everyday again over the last two weeks and now the burner had packed up. Spoke to Andrew and a service kit will cost me £400 max.
Question is, how long should the burner last for? Using a pf controller on 50-does that affect the rate the burner works at?
Excellent heater, but gutted after forking out 3.5k less than 18 months ago and now I've got to she'll out more to maintain.
Steve
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Did your diagnostic light flash a code to say there is a problem with the burner?Also If you have under a 1/4 tank of diesel and sitting on a hill this can cause flame failure.
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No diagnostic lights, just smokes loads and then dies
Won't hold a high temperature-tends to only get to about 55 degrees and then gives up
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I got mine March 11,Webasto 9 KW 2 man system.Isn't there a yellow light on your door near the temperature display?
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Sorry mate-perhaps I wasn't too clear.
There is a diagnostic light, but it hasn't been flashing or giving any indication of any problem
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No diagnostic lights, just smokes loads and then dies
Won't hold a high temperature-tends to only get to about 55 degrees and then gives up
That burner is in faulty and P.F. wont know how to fix it, the only people who can are Webasto Agent.
I had the same problem like yours and was smoking, when I bought my system from P.F. and they didn’t have a clue until I found a webasto Agent who checked it with his special diagnostic equipment and said that the burner was faulty and changed it for FREE.
Since then had no problem with my system and that was 18months ago.
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Dani-top man
How long had you had yours when it started playing up?
How can I find a local agent? Doesn't give any indication in their website
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Did you check how much fuel is in your van?You should have a 2 year warranty,there was a thread about this a couple of months ago.If you think you have a problem with the burner,you would be better contacting your nearest Webasto service agent,they will hook your heater up to a diagnostic machine which will tell you all you need to know,even tells you how many hours your heater has been used.
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Pure glass call me tomorrow I have the pf hot system and also had a problem last month fixed it now but call me I might be able to advise
07789114272
Dave
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Top man. Thanks Dave
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Dani-top man
How long had you had yours when it started playing up?
How can I find a local agent? Doesn't give any indication in their website
Well mine started going wrong as soon as I got it out of PF workshop, lots of phone calls back and forth and no joy, until I took it to a boat repair shop, where they fit lots of webasto burners in to boats, and he gave me a number to contact and this guy is based in Pool, you can contact him and see if he can help, I am not sure were you live but this guy should be able to help or guide you where to go.
His name: Tobby
Tel: 01202690900
Mob: 07976925166
This guy knows all about webasto, he is true pro.
Good luck mate.
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Thanks Dani
Really appreciate that mate
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Thanks Dani
Really appreciate that mate
You welcome mate :) hope it will help you.
P.S. Tobby is a registered Webasto Agent.
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Steve give these guys a try
EC Leisurecraft
Unit 2
Essex Marina
Wallasea
Nr. Rochford
Essex
SS4 2HF
Telephone: 01702 257090
E-mail: enquiries@leisurecraft.co.uk
Website: www.ecleisurecraft.co.uk/
Dealer for Webasto
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Please let us know what the outcome is.
The motor industry doesn't have problems with these heaters but the Marine industry does.
The red diesel that the marinas supply doesn't work well with the burner as it causes it to carbon up, and the other issue is that the Webasto cycles if it just heating up the hot water tank (Calorifier) and not being used for central heating.
I haven't been following the Webasto diesel heater debate in the hot WFP industry, but a few years ago I felt the Ionics seemed to have a solution that PF hasn't used - in their earlier setup anyway.
I believe that the WFP diesel market has the same problems as the marine industry with regard to boilers cycling. This was pointed out to me by a Webasto Service Technician several years ago when I was looking at a Webasto Thermo Top C unit.
The principle in application is that the heater heats the water quite quickly (a small closed circuit) and the heater's pump circulates this hot water through one or two heat exchangers. The water for our brushes is also pumped through this heat exchanger and temperature regulated after the heat exchanger, and this is how that heats the water used to clean the windows.
I believe the problem is that heater produces far more heat than what we use at the brush head. Once the water in the heating system reaches 84 degrees it kicks back to half heat and then switches off, only to have to restart a few minutes later. These short burns reduce the life of the burner and also causes them to coke up, which sound like your problem (smoke). High battery drain is also a problem with this stop/start situation as the burner draws around 11 to 12 amps each time it starts the heater.
Ionics keep (or kept) water flowing through the heat exchanger, even when the operator switched his water to the pole off. This excess water was redirected back into the tank so would slowly raise the water temperature of that.
I am told that the 9 kva diesel heater is a better unit than the original 5 kva Thermo Top C. But I still believe that the cycling issue will be more pronounced than with a smaller heater.
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If you look under webasto parts on e bay there is a guy there selling the wick for the burner which sorts the problem ,I think it costs 30 odd pounds as got it last january and webasto guy fitted and works a treat since,Hope this helps .Liam,
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Firstly chaps-tanks for your responses and suggestions. Spruce-your post is spot on.
I've just got back from GTC Marine, based at RAF Alconbury who are a webasto agent. I'll try and explain what he replaced and commented on with regard to the heater.
Spruce is spot on in saying that the unit is designed to cycle CONSTANTLY. So when I turn off my pole tap, the temperature of the unit increases to 81 degrees and then cuts out to half heat as there is no water cycling through. In the marine industry these units run with a constant flow of water through them for a boiler and rads. I have the 9kw heater and this enough to run a boat with a boiler and 9/10 rads plus.
Because of the intermittent usage, my heater turned off and on 1083 times causing the burner to coke up and die. I had to have the burner unit and fuel sensor replace, however the coil wasn't required, costing £350. I will be going after webasto to see if I can get it under warranty.
Gary's comments were suggesting a remote sensor that as soon as the pole tap is turned off, there may be a way to fit a remote sensor to flip the heater over to cycling the water, or having a separate tank that has a cold supply and is drawn into the heated section like a header tank.
Te unit has only lasted 18 months which I'm very disappointed at, considering the cost. I've got to come up with some way of cycling the steer floe to keep the heater on cycling and the temperature from creeping up. Either that's or put the heater on before I go out and then use the already heated water
He felt that the 9kw was definitely over kill for the use we have and as a single operator, there were other options. I'm not mechanically minded at all, so have to refer to others expertise on this, but pure freedom seemd very resigned to the fact that this was a hazard of the unit after this sort of use. (Which I don't view as particularly excessive)
This isn't a pure freedom dig by the way, as Andrew has been great when required, just disappointed that I may have to fork out every couple of years if I keep the diesel heater.
Steve
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So its not fit for purpose then ??
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Firstly chaps-tanks for your responses and suggestions. Spruce-your post is spot on.
I've just got back from GTC Marine, based at RAF Alconbury who are a webasto agent. I'll try and explain what he replaced and commented on with regard to the heater.
Spruce is spot on in saying that the unit is designed to cycle CONSTANTLY. So when I turn off my pole tap, the temperature of the unit increases to 81 degrees and then cuts out to half heat as there is no water cycling through. In the marine industry these units run with a constant flow of water through them for a boiler and rads. I have the 9kw heater and this enough to run a boat with a boiler and 9/10 rads plus.
Because of the intermittent usage, my heater turned off and on 1083 times causing the burner to coke up and die. I had to have the burner unit and fuel sensor replace, however the coil wasn't required, costing £350. I will be going after webasto to see if I can get it under warranty.
Gary's comments were suggesting a remote sensor that as soon as the pole tap is turned off, there may be a way to fit a remote sensor to flip the heater over to cycling the water, or having a separate tank that has a cold supply and is drawn into the heated section like a header tank.
Te unit has only lasted 18 months which I'm very disappointed at, considering the cost. I've got to come up with some way of cycling the steer floe to keep the heater on cycling and the temperature from creeping up. Either that's or put the heater on before I go out and then use the already heated water
He felt that the 9kw was definitely over kill for the use we have and as a single operator, there were other options. I'm not mechanically minded at all, so have to refer to others expertise on this, but pure freedom seemd very resigned to the fact that this was a hazard of the unit after this sort of use. (Which I don't view as particularly excessive)
This isn't a pure freedom dig by the way, as Andrew has been great when required, just disappointed that I may have to fork out every couple of years if I keep the diesel heater.
Steve
That's interesting,wonder if PF will take note of the findings.
I am quite lucky in that I circulate the water through the heater as I use backpacks to do my work.I run the hose fom pump 1 directly into tank,then I bought extra length of car radiator hose which I run from the van port pump 2 back into the tank.I reckon it takes 1 and a half to 2 hours of circulating(could be longer if ambient temp of water is very cold) to get a full tank of hot water.You start off with low flow rate and keep increasing the flow rate as the water gets warmer.
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Steve-sorry, can't insert your quote from my phone
I think it's for for purpose, just think I've possibly used it wrong in that I've used it on demand rather than cycling back into the tank.
What it means is that every time I finish at a house/row, I've got to get back to the van quickly to turn the gate valve so that it cycles
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Firstly chaps-tanks for your responses and suggestions. Spruce-your post is spot on.
I've just got back from GTC Marine, based at RAF Alconbury who are a webasto agent. I'll try and explain what he replaced and commented on with regard to the heater.
Spruce is spot on in saying that the unit is designed to cycle CONSTANTLY. So when I turn off my pole tap, the temperature of the unit increases to 81 degrees and then cuts out to half heat as there is no water cycling through. In the marine industry these units run with a constant flow of water through them for a boiler and rads. I have the 9kw heater and this enough to run a boat with a boiler and 9/10 rads plus.
Because of the intermittent usage, my heater turned off and on 1083 times causing the burner to coke up and die. I had to have the burner unit and fuel sensor replace, however the coil wasn't required, costing £350. I will be going after webasto to see if I can get it under warranty.
Gary's comments were suggesting a remote sensor that as soon as the pole tap is turned off, there may be a way to fit a remote sensor to flip the heater over to cycling the water, or having a separate tank that has a cold supply and is drawn into the heated section like a header tank.
Te unit has only lasted 18 months which I'm very disappointed at, considering the cost. I've got to come up with some way of cycling the steer floe to keep the heater on cycling and the temperature from creeping up. Either that's or put the heater on before I go out and then use the already heated water
He felt that the 9kw was definitely over kill for the use we have and as a single operator, there were other options. I'm not mechanically minded at all, so have to refer to others expertise on this, but pure freedom seemd very resigned to the fact that this was a hazard of the unit after this sort of use. (Which I don't view as particularly excessive)
This isn't a pure freedom dig by the way, as Andrew has been great when required, just disappointed that I may have to fork out every couple of years if I keep the diesel heater.
Steve
Hi Steve.
The way I understand it is that Ionics have a pressure relief valve fitted on the heated water side going to your reel. It will have a blowoff pressure set below the pressure switch or controllers cutout. Once you switch the tap off at your pole the pressure will build up a bit and then be released into your water tank. Downside is that the pump will be running all the time.
Personally, I also think that the 9KVA heater is too powerful for this as well, so you may even have engineer something else as well to bleed off more heat from the heater circuit. Last night I saw a company advertising a finned tube heat exchanger
http://www.turnbull-scott.co.uk/industrial_heat_exchangers/finned_tube/
that could be fitted into your tank and supplied by the hot water returning to the furnace to be reheated after its been through your water to water heat exchanger.
This would still allow you to turn your pole water off and zapp enough heat from the water to reduce the on/off cycling of the furnace. If these heat exchangers are big enough (zap enough heat) then this will be used to warm the tank and allow the heater to run with a reduced number of stop starts. Once the water gets warm enough in the main tank then the heater can be switched off.
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Steve-sorry, can't insert your quote from my phone
I think it's for for purpose, just think I've possibly used it wrong in that I've used it on demand rather than cycling back into the tank.
What it means is that every time I finish at a house/row, I've got to get back to the van quickly to turn the gate valve so that it cycles
I think that this is the problem. PF sell it as a heat-on-demand heater, but it's not designed for that. It's designed to start up the then run for a long time heating radiators etc on the boat and warming the rooms up before switching off.
The smaller Thermo Top C is also called a block heater. It is fitted into the cooling system of up market cars and 4 x 4's to heat the engine and warm the cabin in freezing weather. It starts and heats up the engine coolant water and once that gets warm it switches on the car's internal fan to defrost the windscreen and warm it up. It will probably run for 30 to 40 minutes before the temperature is reached and the unit will switch off.
The reason why these units go onto reduced heat output at 80+ degrees is that most radiator thermostats to the radiator open in the mid 80 degrees, so its pointless heating the engine higher as that heat will be lost through the radiator.
I have all the kit to put a heater together, but I think the best way is the use the heater to heat the water in to main tank. Maybe another way would be to reduce the size of your main tank and fit a secondary 125 litre tank and use that as the hot water tank. Top it up from the main cold water tank as required.
The downside with using the heater that way is that you need to keep your van frost free during winter. If your heater freezes, than will be an expensive repair, probably replacement.
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Thanks Spruce
Just surprised this hasn't been experienced before by others. We know that there are quite a number up and down the country
I'll have to just adapt it I think in order for it to work for me. For a single operator though, that's quite a bit if agg, for a lot of outlay
Oh well
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Thanks Spruce
Just surprised this hasn't been experienced before by others. We know that there are quite a number up and down the country
I'll have to just adapt it I think in order for it to work for me. For a single operator though, that's quite a bit if agg, for a lot of outlay
Oh well
There have been a couple of posts of late highlighting issues.
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not having one of these systems,but looking into getting one.
couldnt you run a simple by pass back in to the tank.so when tap turn of at end of pole.the water continues though bypass back to tank,so heatar is running fulltime then
down side is the pump will be running alot more.but cheaper to replace a pump than the heater bits.
or have i missed something
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When I was up in Grimsby they had the recycle option built in then, couple of years ago I think even had the frost stat fitted too. ???
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Mine is a two operator set up but only 1 uses most of the time
On my second real I have the option to leave the pump running and connect the hose to a fitting on the tank which will constantly keep the burner working
So should I always have this connected and running when using the heater and only 1 operator
Steve nice to speak to you the other day glad you got it sorted shame about the cost
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Mine is a two operator set up but only 1 uses most of the time
On my second real I have the option to leave the pump running and connect the hose to a fitting on the tank which will constantly keep the burner working
So should I always have this connected and running when using the heater and only 1 operator
Steve nice to speak to you the other day glad you got it sorted shame about the cost
Do you experience the furnace switching off and then having to restart shortly after? If so then you must do this.
I presume with a 2 man operation you have a 9kva heater.
It would be very helpful to hear from you if your furnace does do this (on/off cycling) and if it does, does having the second operator's system bleeding back to the tank stop it?
The reason for asking is that I have calculated that my 5kva Webasto will keep up with 2 operators even although PF only used to supply that unit for a single operator. I appreciate that they would expect the heater to heat the water much hotter, but they also supply a thermostatic control valve to regulate the temperature output to the brush.
Your heater produces nearly twice the output if it is a 9kva when compared to mine.
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Spruce yes mine is the 9kw heater and I will chech it tomorrow and post my findings also would it help to have the taps fully open or partically closed I'm talking about the red valves inside the heater unit the ones that allow more or less cold water to mix with the hot ( hope that makes sense)
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Spruce yes mine is the 9kw heater and I will chech it tomorrow and post my findings also would it help to have the taps fully open or partically closed I'm talking about the red valves inside the heater unit the ones that allow more or less cold water to mix with the hot ( hope that makes sense)
Hi David
I would suggest you run it the way you normally would as this would be the way you are most comfortable with. If you turn your mixer valves up, then you will get hotter water which may not be what you want on the glass. Turn the mixer valves down and you will find that the furnace is more likely to cycle on and off more frequently and not give you the results you have come to expect. You don't want to distort your findings.
Try it as a single operator and then as if you had another operator but redirect that hot water to the tank. If you are experiencing heater cycling issues then it's most likely when you switch your hose tap off as a single operator. If the heater just drops into cruising mode without switching off, that isn't going to cause you any problems.
As per earlier, you put less strain on the heater starter coils if the unit can run almost continously and will use less battery current during the day. (You should also be able to turn the heater off at some point in the day and continue with warm - hot water directly from the tank for the remainder of that day.)
On/off cycles also cause sooting and carboning up in the ignition chamber. Continous running helps to prevent that from occuring and there is the possibility that a good quality diesel could burn some of that carbon off.
Please also consider that if you do opt to bleed the extra heat off with the other system running, then you will need to charge your pump battery more often. It won't be drawing the same current as it would pumping water to the brush head, but it will still be using some current.
Thank you for helping us understand this a little better.
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http://m1272.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/PureGlass11/image_zpsfc743596.jpg
http://m1272.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/PureGlass11/image_zpsb4b8479b.jpg
Not sure if the above works, but these show the cycling three way valve and the setup of my heater.
Is there a way I can adapt the three way valve to cycle back to my tank, once my pole tap is turned off? If I leave that gate valve openat the moment, there is insufficient pressure out to the reel, so all i get is a trickle out of the brush head and the heater continues to cycle back to the tank.
If I close that valve (which is how i have been using whilst cleaning), the temperature of the unit increases to 81 degrees and then cuts out and has to start all over again once i turn my pole tap on.
Could i fit a seperate pump on the second heater inlet and cycle that to the tank-would i be able to switch over to my reel?
Thanks again, Steve
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http://m1272.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/PureGlass11/image_zpsfc743596.jpg
http://m1272.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/PureGlass11/image_zpsb4b8479b.jpg
Not sure if the above works, but these show the cycling three way valve and the setup of my heater.
Is there a way I can adapt the three way valve to cycle back to my tank, once my pole tap is turned off? If I leave that gate valve openat the moment, there is insufficient pressure out to the reel, so all i get is a trickle out of the brush head and the heater continues to cycle back to the tank.
If I close that valve (which is how i have been using whilst cleaning), the temperature of the unit increases to 81 degrees and then cuts out and has to start all over again once i turn my pole tap on.
Could i fit a seperate pump on the second heater inlet and cycle that to the tank-would i be able to switch over to my reel?
Thanks again, Steve
Hi Steve,
Pictures don't come up.
A second pump would be the best solution. Most 2 man setups have a pump and controller for each hose reel.
I would look at a 3 bar pressure relief valve on your outlet to hose reel.
http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/pressure-relief-valves-231-0000 page down for example.
I would have preferred to look at 4 bar but with hot water you can use a lower pressure setting on the controllers setup.
If you fit this on the outlet with a t piece then you will always have 3 bar at the brush and when you switch off, the water pressure will open the relief valve and divert that back to the tank. You maybe able to run a higher flow rate so there is always a bleed off occuring.
I would fit a ball valve before the pressure relief valve so you could switch the whole thing off it you just wanted cold.