Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: rycalshaw on November 22, 2012, 07:36:36 am
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hi guys, as a relative newbie i,ve been thinking seriously about trying to clean using the lm method as much as i can, i have a 200 speed rotary and an e40 crb aswell as my hwe machine,the problem is there are so many conflicting opinions regarding this,many people say its for low profile commercial carpets only and not really advisable for domestics, others say they use it on everything inc wool then in the next post someone else says that if used on wool it may distort the pile etc its so confusing, when i attended the training course it was largely based around hwe so any advice would be apprieciated especially from stand alone lm cleaners..thanks
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Despite what the LM'ers tell you, LM is very limited in what it can do, or in what level of soiling it can deal with, going down the LM only route is probably a mistake, especially if you're not experience, so why not have both HWSE and LM and deal with each carpet as it comes along.
Simon
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Simon is right....
What process you use depends on what you face..
We use bonnet buff for those "in between" cleans for a few of our commercial customers.
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Despite what the LM'ers tell you, LM is very limited in what it can do, or in what level of soiling it can deal with, going down the LM only route is probably a mistake, especially if you're not experience, so why not have both HWSE and LM and deal with each carpet as it comes along.
Simon
Simon is right , ive tried it but the type of market we are in lm coulnt cut it , on lightly soiled its great , i now pre spray rotary, the extract with fabric fresh on all jobs and it feels right and smells great they all say thats smell lovely , so are anchoring in there mind pleasent feelings when u are there . but thats another thread
neil
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Simon only THINKS he is right........ :P ;D
I use LM in domestics, have cleaned some right mingers with it, regularly clean wool carpets with it.... There are very few that I have had to turn down..
It depends on the LM method you use, and how experienced you are....
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I thought you'd be on hector. ;D
I think if you only have LM available to you, you end up seeing what you want to see, but if you have both systems you can choose the one that produces the best possible result, given the circumstances.
Hector is right in saying that it depends on your experience and if you know what you're doing you can make a dirty carpet look clean without it actually being as clean as it looks.
Simon
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Only ever used DF and in 3 years never had a problem cleaned some mingers some carpets not clean as good as i would of liked but same with any method you use all.
If i had HWE also then that would be good but i guarantee i'd be using the DF 90% of the time.
Cheers Phil.
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To put it in a nutshell, a professional carpet cleaner should be in a position to clean any carpet in any location, regardless of age or condition.
The reason I don't use on a regular basis is because we've cleaned various carpets with LM and then use the TM and RX after and the result is massively better and the dirty that was still in the carpet was amazing.
Having said that we are doing a big job at the weekend which we are going to encap some of it and tm the rest, simply because it is so old and worn that we can't get a result any other way, but that is extremely rare.
Simon
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To put it in a nutshell, a professional carpet cleaner should be in a position to clean any carpet in any location, regardless of age or condition.
The reason I don't use on a regular basis is because we've cleaned various carpets with LM and then use the TM and RX after and the result is massively better and the dirty that was still in the carpet was amazing.
Having said that we are doing a big job at the weekend which we are going to encap some of it and tm the rest, simply because I AM so old and worn that we can't get a result any other way, but that is extremely rare.
Simon
fixed that for you Simon ;D ;D
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Hector :'( :'(
There was no need to tell everyone ;D
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Hector is right in saying that it depends on your experience and if you know what you're doing you can make a dirty carpet look clean without it actually being as clean as it looks.
Simon
Which at the end of the day is what we get paid for..... The customer being happy with the result... ;D
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The idea that if the carpet looks clean the customer will be happy is a load of crap and is an excuse used by people who know they are not getting they carpet clean so kid them selves by using the excuse 'it looks clean'
If just getting the carpet looking clean is ok do they Explain exactly that to the
Customer? or do they keep quite about the real truth about what they have done
Customer want thier carpets to be clean not just look clean, if you disagree then just ask them, how many will choose to have thier carpets 'looking clean' rather than really clean?
Anyone who only bonnets carpets is selling a lie they are not carpet cleaners they are 'carpet appearance technicians' which is strange as they never have that written on thier vans.
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So basically all the tests done by LM sellers are billox I.E Dry Fusion, Texatherm etc, and are selling there machines under false pretences ???? and should state will make carpet look clean but will not be.
Would Love Sean from DF to join the debate and state exactly what he thinks or anyone who sell low moisture for that matter.
I'd also reckon cleaning a carpet HWE and left to dry would look great but cleaned again the next day the water in your tank would still be dirty ?
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What test have they done?
Iin the majority of situations, bonnet cleaning is an appearance based system, this is especailly true in the domestic market, there is nothing wrong with this and for the commercial sector it is a preferred method as it has advantages over other systems
but if all you offer customers is bonneting cleaning then you are not being fair to the customer and rather than giving them want they want you are giving them the only thing you have.
Bonneting cleaning will never remove as much dirt as HWE so is an inferior system in the domestic market, no matter what the machine sellers say.
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All carpet cleaning is an appearance clean apart from submersion cleaning of rugs. Even with the most powerful machine you will never extract all the dirt from a carpet. When submersion cleaning rugs it is sometimes 10 minutes with the hose on before the water runs clear.
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Then we need a better way to evaluate cleaning processes by the amount of dirt removed from the carpet because we are offering a dirt removal service although we are calling it carpet cleaning this is the result of removing dirt.
And ask every customer what they want after giving them all the information and they will want clean carpets produced by the maximum amount of soil removed, not just the appearance of clean carpets
So if we use a 10 piont system with Encap at 1 as it removes no dirt to submersion cleaning at 10.
I would put bonnet cleaning at about 3
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mike, how can you say that bonnet cleaning is selling a lie and then say theres nothing wrong with it in the commercial sector,surely if its a lie its a lie in any sector as the commercial jobs are still paying customers..
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I never said bonnet cleaning is a lie , if anything in some situations it's the operator who is lying and not revealing all the facts to the customer.
And in the commercial sector the demands of the customers are different, sometimes dirt removal is not the main consideration it could be down time or cost, so given all the information they chose bonnet cleaning. this is justified as they have all the facts and are given the choice.
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Using this logic unless you follow this procedure on every job you are also lying to your customers.
Prior to commencing, scrub and thoroughly rinse out your recovery tank.
Clean carpet as normal.
Empty recovery tank, scrub and thoroughly rinse out.
Clean carpet again.
If recovery tank contains dirty water, empty, scrub and rinse out.
Clean carpet again.
If recovery tank contains dirty water, empty, scrub and rinse out.
Clean carpet again.
Follow above procedure until the recovered water is 100% clear.
And of course we all do this.
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Exactly ;D
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What test have they done?
I think they would of tested thouroughly not just thrown machine together and said that will Clean carpets or at least make them look Clean Now all we have to do is put a stupid price on them and let the suckers see if they work or not KERCHING!!!!!!!! :(
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The idea that if the carpet looks clean the customer will be happy is a load of crap and is an excuse used by people who know they are not getting they carpet clean so kid them selves by using the excuse 'it looks clean'
Get off your high horse will you..??
Who died and made you the font of all carpet cleaning knowledge ??
If the customer is happy and the carpet looks clean what else are you going to do??
wipe their arse for them and make sure that they have not missed a bit?? after all if it looks clean it may not be.....
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i make carpets" look" clean :)
they usually look and smell nice when i'm finished ;D
have not had a customer refuse to pay yet :)
i must be doing something right :o
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We can all give silly answers, but it doesn't take a great degree of commen sense to see wiping a carpet with an obsorbant bonnet will not get it clean, nor does it take a font of knowledge, of course my comments won't be popular, but rather that just give indignant answers why not try and give evidence that I'm taking rubbish.
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i make carpets" look" clean :)
they usually look and smell nice when i'm finished ;D
have not had a customer refuse to pay yet :)
i must be doing something right :o
Precicely Creighters....
Customer thinks their carpets could do with a clean....
Call a carpet cleaner...
Hector appears, and cleans the carpet..
Customer looks at finished product, and pays Hector...
There is nothing else to say here.... Evidence is.. customer has eyes and if the carpet is not clean in the customers eyes, the customer will not pay...
I have never had this happen yet in 22 years of carpet cleaning and 4 years of LM only cleaning.
The idea that if the carpet looks clean the customer will be happy is a load of crap
If the carpet looks clean the average customer and none that I have cleaned for is NOT going to get out a "dirt-o-meter" and see the remaining muck in the carpet...... He/she is going to say "thank you" and pay up....
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This is fine I have no problem with just making carpets look clean if the customers is happy that Is our aim...... but if you explain the carpet only 'looks' clean do you think they still will be as happy?
This topic is going slightly off topic, the original question was... is bonneting good enough as a stand alone system, My answer is no, can any 100% padders explain why I am wrong?
John Gs from the USA (sorry for forgetting your full name) opinion on this would be quite interesting
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100% DRY fusioneer going 3 years never had a non payer never had a complaint infact alot of wow the last time i had it done it took days to dry. Even had it looks cleaner than the last time it was cleaned. All part of the service madam. ;D
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So in short us padders take dirt out of the carpet.
Porty and TMers take dirt out of the carpet.
No one with any system takes all the dirt out of the carpets..
This is fine I have no problem with just making carpets look clean if the customers is happy that Is our aim...... but if you explain the carpet only 'looks' clean do you think they still will be as happy?
so as your system does not take all the dirt out either, perhaps you can answer the question yourself Mike..
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Before
(http://i47.tinypic.com/15wcj95.jpg)
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After Dry Fusion
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2cmok02.jpg)
ENOUGH SAID!!!!!
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The customer calls us because their carpet looks dirty - no scientific evidence there, no exact soiling level, it just looks dirty. We give them a carpet that looks clean. Why wouldn't they be happy? (Unless we missed a bit! :o)
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Still wouldn't put my tongue on that carpet :P
I might do if you rinsed it properly though :o
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I wouldn't put my tongue on any carpet only r lasses :P
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so if i were to do a domestic polyprop, would the method be something like this..thorough vac,, light prespray (would hd be ok),,agitate with bonnet or crb,, finish with mf bonnet..
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Hi Ry with my DF i VAC most important part using LM then prespray then dip my pads in solution wring out then bonnet Job done.
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ry
It’s the only system I use for my void work and will taking to a school I’m doing Saturday the TM the back up 8)
I don’t use this dipping method it spreads to much muck about
PM
Are you talking about the machine or cleaning product???? ;) ;D
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Talking about the process i use and i always dip my pads and ring out as for spreading muck the process is to spread the solution not muck lol.
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Insert Quote The customer calls us becausetheir carpet looks dirty - no scientific evidencethere, no exact soiling level, it just looks dirty. We givethem a carpet that looks clean. Why wouldn'tthey be happy? (Unless we missed a bit! )
Well I actually clean a fair percentage of carpets that dont look dirty ::) I certainly wont tellthe customer that it does not need cleaning becuase it looks clean and not dirty, some people do actualy gettheir carpets cleaned becausethey feelthey needthem cleaning regularly, and yes i agree, not many butthey arethere . Mike , I thought you would know that encap does remove dirt , inthe process of post vaccing . I do reme,ber a number of years ago we did a test , bonnet, encap and d/f all onthe same carpet , we toweledthe area,s after cleaning and no transfer of dirt withthe encap, bonnet and d/f both had soild transfer/ This alone was likelythe reason I decided to take on board encap as an option. geoff
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gwrongson, I didnt post that ;D
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apologies ,
now ammended , just i copied and pasted as inserting quotes never deems to works for me ::)
and why the hell is the no haps between some words ?
Geoff
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gwrightson, what method and chemical do you use when your encap cleaning..
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I reckon it's a pretty fair bet that the vast majority of newbies who start with an LM system did so because it was the cheapest option. A few hundred quid and hey presto, you're a carpet cleaner. If LM is all you have seen, or know then what you will see when you clean a carpet is a cleaner carpet, not a clean carpet.
The problem is that operating LM only severely restricts the markets you can operate in. We did a very greasy restaurant yesterday that you wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance of doing with LM. We do tens of thousand of pounds of similar work every year and if we only did LM we wouldn't have that source of revenue and in this economic climate it's not a good idea to exclude yourself from markets that you would otherwise be able to do, if only you had you the equipment.
Most professional carpet cleaners have the means to clean any carpet regardless of the level of soiling, or circumstances and sometimes LM fits the bill, but if you operate on the basis that it is your job to provide your customers with the very best quality then you'd use LM very little, as do I.
Simon
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:-* :-*
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How many times do we have to beat this one to death ???
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i have tried numerous types of encap, cimex, rotobrite not impressed at all with rotobrite, surround from j.kelly,
Dynamall is the latest and i am impressed with both of these , the only negative thing with dynamall is the dilution rate , other wise a good product . but by far the best i have used was a product Nick was selling a number of years ago, but can i hell as like think of the name ??? I have not tried releasit yet , but would love to give it a go.
One drawback i have found with the latest encap products is the foaming ability, the idea is to achieve a light even coating of foam with encap, but i must say not always happy with this side of these products, i still use the same cimex, same flow rates, same speed so can be a little frustrating at times.
Do any encap user experience the same problem?
Geoff.
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No if anything i get too much foam
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Paul,
You know why that is? ;D
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PM
Sorry I was referring (Hi Ry with my DF) and to the pictures you posted not your method
I was only trying to advise ry about centrifugal force and the dangers HWE guys call it the Black Death
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I reckon it's a pretty fair bet that the vast majority of newbies who start with an LM system did so because it was the cheapest option. A few hundred quid and hey presto, you're a carpet cleaner. Simon
Cheapest option tell that all the guys who bought DF i think you'll find porties cheaper :)
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Cheapest option tell that all the guys who bought DF i think you'll find porties cheaper
And you, how did you come to DF?
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A mate of mine was a cleaner on a Caravan site he saw an opportunity. Caravan site wanted Carpets dry quick he done a bit of research DF was what was looked into he had a demo bought the gear and Hey Presto :) i worked for him for a while then bought a setup off him and went my own way :)
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i have tried numerous types of encap, cimex, rotobrite not impressed at all with rotobrite, surround from j.kelly,
Dynamall is the latest and i am impressed with both of these , the only negative thing with dynamall is the dilution rate , other wise a good product . but by far the best i have used was a product Nick was selling a number of years ago, but can i hell as like think of the name ??? I have not tried releasit yet , but would love to give it a go.
One drawback i have found with the latest encap products is the foaming ability, the idea is to achieve a light even coating of foam with encap, but i must say not always happy with this side of these products, i still use the same cimex, same flow rates, same speed so can be a little frustrating at times.
Do any encap user experience the same problem?
Geoff.
Would that be fusion clean Geoff ??
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Oh Dear, im going to take cover now :D
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A mate of mine was a cleaner on a Caravan site he saw an opportunity. Caravan site wanted Carpets dry quick he done a bit of research DF was what was looked into he had a demo bought the gear and Hey Presto :) i worked for him for a while then bought a setup off him and went my own way :)
So having researched the industry you deliberately chose DF because you believed it to to be the best for your customers, or just bought the gear of your mate because it was what you were used to?
Simon
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Question to the LM cleaners regarding residential carpets. If you had a Truckmount/ portable and a low moisture setup in your van and you came to do a house full of 80/20 cut pile carpet which method would you choose to use and why.
I have host, encap, portable and Truckmount available to use and in nearly all residential circumstances the low moisture would be the last I would choose to use.
Please don't be offended by this - I am genuinely intrigued by this re-ocurring debate. Does it come down to time and therefore price? Encap is very quick and I can see how you can keep the price down for the client?
Nigel
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In coming
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Nigel,
That's exactly where I am on the issue.
Simon
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Good we are all agreed let's change the subject now ;D
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A mate of mine was a cleaner on a Caravan site he saw an opportunity. Caravan site wanted Carpets dry quick he done a bit of research DF was what was looked into he had a demo bought the gear and Hey Presto :) i worked for him for a while then bought a setup off him and went my own way :)
So having researched the industry you deliberately chose DF because you believed it to to be the best for your customers, or just bought the gear of your mate because it was what you were used to?
Simon
To be the best choice for drying time on caravan site at that moment then from me doing the work and seeing how good the results were and learning how to use DF and work with my mate being patchy i bought a setup from him and went my own way and never had a problem with using only Dry fusion.
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So having researched the industry you deliberately chose DF because you believed it to to be the best for your customers, or just bought the gear of your mate because it was what you were used to?
Simon
Stop it Simon :P
;D
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A mate of mine was a cleaner on a Caravan site he saw an opportunity. Caravan site wanted Carpets dry quick he done a bit of research DF was what was looked into he had a demo bought the gear and Hey Presto :) i worked for him for a while then bought a setup off him and went my own way :)
So having researched the industry you deliberately chose DF because you believed it to to be the best for your customers, or just bought the gear of your mate because it was what you were used to?
Simon
To be the best choice for drying time on caravan site at that moment then from me doing the work and seeing how good the results were and learning how to use DF and work with my mate being patchy i bought a setup from him and went my own way and never had a problem with using only Dry fusion.
Depends what you consider a problem. ;D
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Exactly not encountered any only 2" of shrunk Carpet which i couldn't sort for them ;D
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If you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail.
If you only have a rotary, a rotary will clean anything.
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If you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail.
If you only have a rotary, a rotary will clean anything.
Eric Cantona?
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Hecktor,
No it was not fusion clean ::)
and i have remebered the company that made it .
Bray chemicals, cannot find a iota about them .
Geoff
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Question to the LM cleaners regarding residential carpets. If you had a Truckmount/ portable and a low moisture setup in your van and you came to do a house full of 80/20 cut pile carpet which method would you choose to use and why.
39 years of doing padding with OP, a fews years doing padcapping and the last 6 years doing encap.
Fact is, either encap works or it doesn't, sure it makes a lot of difference HOW you encap as you must actually
strip the fibers of all soils and stickies in order for the process to work correctly. Many machines do not do
an optimal job at this, thus encap in those situation is less than desirable. But for the equipment that effectively
DOES strip soils and stickies for the carpet, then encap in ALL situation does not only work but works very well.
As to greasy restaurants, they too work fine, if you have equipment able to strip the fibers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iye9tWnzQU&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iye9tWnzQU&feature=plcp)
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Hi John,
Thanks for your reply - I did wonder whether anyone would :)
I don't think you answered my question and anyway I was really hoping a uk based carpet cleaner would respond. However, you did a great job of advertising your own low moisture system. ::)
Is the Trinity coming over here? It looks like a nice piece of kit for ploughing through low profile man made carpet.
Nigel
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Question to the LM cleaners regarding residential carpets. If you had a Truckmount/ portable and a low moisture setup in your van and you came to do a house full of 80/20 cut pile carpet which method would you choose to use and why.
I have host, encap, portable and Truckmount available to use and in nearly all residential circumstances the low moisture would be the last I would choose to use.
Please don't be offended by this - I am genuinely intrigued by this re-ocurring debate. Does it come down to time and therefore price? Encap is very quick and I can see how you can keep the price down for the client?
Nigel
I will answer you Nigel... I would use a variation of the LM method that I use now.... Encap and bonnet it off at the end.... usually using one of the following products... Mpower HD microsplitter and Fusion Clean...
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interesting hector, do you mean go through the encap process using an encap solution then vaccing then follow that up with a bonnet clean using one of the chemicals mentioned above..
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[/quote]
I will answer you Nigel... I would use a variation of the LM method that I use now.... Encap and bonnet it off at the end.... usually using one of the following products... Mpower HD microsplitter and Fusion Clean...
[/quote]
Hector
Why do you choose to do that rather than HWE? Do you find it produces better results/ quicker dry/ faster to do? I am interested because I could encap but choose not to because, rightly or wrongly, I don't think it does as good a job.
Interested that you pad off after encap. What is the point of that? If it is an encap chemical surely it should be left to do its thing?
Nigel
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John,
An interesting video, trouble is the carpet isn't actually clean, it just looks clean. All of the dirt and grease is still in the carpet and that to me is not acceptable if your a professional 'carpet cleaner.'
The restaurant we did was so greasy that the grease wasn't just on the surface, but all the way through the pile in the traffic lanes, how would / could encap deal with that?
Don't get me wrong, I like encap in certain situations, but I'm a bit too fond of putting the dirt where is belongs, down the drain to use it across the board when people are paying good money to have their carpet 'cleaned.'
Simon
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I am thinking about it, but am testing the waters a bit...LOL
Question to the LM cleaners regarding residential carpets. If you had a Truckmount/ portable and a low moisture setup in your van and you came to do a house full of 80/20 cut pile carpet which method would you choose to use and why.
I have host, encap, portable and Truckmount available to use and in nearly all residential circumstances the low moisture would be the last I would choose to use.
Please don't be offended by this - I am genuinely intrigued by this re-ocurring debate. Does it come down to time and therefore price? Encap is very quick and I can see how you can keep the price down for the client?
I would op, and I am sure you are not one bit surprised by my reply...LOL
But why would I OP? Do I really think I can do as good of a job with OP over HWE?
YES... absolutely.
Our main sales are to TM guys do you think they are working at lowering their standards to their customers?
Customers are being charged more for LM than for HWE, even though LM is MUCH cheaper.. humm, why would
customers pay that except for seeing more VALUE in the LM cleaning?
When I state Vortex cleaners now offer LM for higher rates than their Big V cleaning, do you honestly think customers
would EVER pay that except THEY see the value? And the quality of cleaning?
Virtually all my customers are ex hwe users, why do we keep them decade after decade? We charge MORE not less than our competitors.
The fallacy is in the perception of the cleaning by "TAUGHT" carpet cleaners, not by experience, of course I mean by that simply that what you are taught in a class seldom is a sure thing in reality.
I have traveled the US and much of Canada showing exactly what OP does, and much of that was BEFORE the Trinity and all it does superior to all OP we have built in the past, but in those travels I was given carpets that the cleaners (in their world) were having a tough time cleaning, both residential and commercial, to date, and that could change any time, we have solved every issue we have come across, so I don't have to validate what I am doing to ME, but I do, EXPLAIN what we are doing to others.
Most the negative comments I have received I received from people who are now OP users.
One guy, Ken Luebke bought an OP from me JUST TO PROVE ME WRONG, now he has dumped his Tm for his Trinity Cm and Trinity Profit, he didn't come to OP with hope of improving his cleaning, just the opposite, but his PROVING me wrong, proved that OP was a better choice for him and his customers... go figure..
An interesting video, trouble is the carpet isn't actually clean, it just looks clean. All of the dirt and grease is still in the carpet and that to me is not acceptable if your a professional 'carpet cleaner.'
There again, that carpet stays clean much longer doing encap than it did doing HWE, but just because the customer vacuums out the soil is not good enough? LOL. it is not only good enough for the custy they indeed prefer it, I do grease of all levels, come have 1/4 on top of the carpet at the entry to the kitchen, I know all about grease, and just because you have not experienced cleaning it with encap is NO reason to not accept anyone else NOT DOING IT ON A REGULAR basis. I understand you have nothing like the Trinity machines in the UK, so you won't see (other than in other cleaners videos) exactly what I am talking about until someone there starts using them.
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Well you've sold me, but then I'm pretty stupid.
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Wynne, you and I will get along fine, not too serious, but love a bit of fun....
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I wasn't planning on getting involved with the HWE/LM cleaning debate, as I don't have enough experience of LM yet. But I'd be interested in the LM guys comments on this video, title 'How carpet cleaning should be'
http://youtu.be/IJyN5eQTJfc (http://youtu.be/IJyN5eQTJfc)
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I think encap will be more suited to the us market more as they clean their carpets more regularly than what we do over here, (most every six months) so less crap to remove, were dirty sods over here and most will only get there carpets cleaned when really nessecary or as a last resort before replacing. So we would require a more "deep clean" on most job's we do. Still it does has a place over here but more for the commercial side of thing's, My next purchase will be a op machine but will not be to replace the tm. I haven't hwe any commercial work for at least 2 years so will purely for that.
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Mark, would you like to explain what you mean by "deep clean" please
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Ive just got the Hbot which is a similar machine and i am getting very impressed with the results .
John have you seen the hbot and is there much difference with it compared to the Trinity?
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I think you know Hector ;D
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Use this scenario, if your encapping a whole house there's nowhere to remove any furniture out of the rooms, so your pulling it away from walls and cleaning behind then putting back. If your not going back 24hrs later to post vac your relying on the customer to a) have a decent enough vac and b) they would need to move all the furniture again to remove all the cristalized crap been left behind by encapping. Just wont happen. We all know that most customers don't even vac behind furniture anyway.
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I know all about grease, and just because you have not experienced cleaning it with encap is NO reason to not accept anyone else NOT DOING IT ON A REGULAR basis. I understand you have nothing like the Trinity machines in the UK, so you won't see (other than in other cleaners videos) exactly what I am talking about until someone there starts using them.
So when you've got a greasy restaurant carpet where the pile is full of grease, where does the grease go when you encap it?
I assume because of the nature of grease you can't encapsulate it, so you can't vac it out the next day?
You guy's have agot a completely different cleaning culture in the States, where carpet cleaning is done on a far more regular basis and not every few years, or every blue moon as it is over here.
Mossy,
It would be good to get your Orbot on a restaurant carpet and put Encap to the test on grease?
Simon
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A professional knows no one tool will do all jobs as well or as effectively, including a TM. So when someone says that about a product you immediately discount any claims, which is a shame.
Having said that, the sad truth is in the UK there are plenty of padders and franchise dry systems and the bar is set very low to impress. I've vacuumed a few carpets with a Kirby and had customers saying it looks like new. ;D
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I wasn't planning on getting involved with the HWE/LM cleaning debate, as I don't have enough experience of LM yet. But I'd be interested in the LM guys comments on this video, title 'How carpet cleaning should be'
Loved the sad music, as it appears to be celebrating the death of a poor carpet...LOL But the Drimaster did a good job of restoring the carpet, a tool that works well as OTHERS do.
Ive just got the Hbot which is a similar machine and i am getting very impressed with the results .
John have you seen the hbot and is there much difference with it compared to the Trinity?
If you all are truly interested in learning about OP, I will be happy to teach you about what it is, where we have come from and where we are going. It has been a LONG trip, I started with my father in 1973. I at this point have used OP longer than anyone in the US. We (dad and I) built the CCS BLue which was the first commercial OP. We used that ole blue for 28 years.
Then after all those years we built the Conqueror series, we added 50% more orbit to the mix, at that time Hruby, who was our customer and who later built the Orbot had bought his company from my cousin, who had bought it years before from my uncle Marv Obbink. Hruby first made an exact copy of our ole blue, later they changed and modified to come out with the Orbot. Challenger also made an OP, Kirk Jenkins had worked for me on building machines. so he then came out with his version, Clark Lancaster also built op, but he built square ones at the time. Later Clark, Challenger and Orbot all changed their orbit to match the Conquerors.
If you watch this video "The History of OP"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87bw3zZEQsk&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87bw3zZEQsk&feature=plcp) that will give you a background of where we came from over the years and you will see, not only did we never shy away from filth, we sought it out to test our method. I traveled the US and parts of Canada showing the method and correcting carpet cleaning problems for cleaners on their home turf.
I know the video is long, but if you want to understand, this will really help you see we are not some part time, halfassed, low standard carpet cleaners and never have been. You have to laugh as the last song on the video is a song a competitor wrote and sang about me, he gives me a hard time, but I get a kick out of it anyways...LOL
Now as to the difference between the Trintiy and an orbot, challenger,or lancaster machines. The Trinity series is a newly patented machine, our lowest orbit (Trinty has three speeds) is faster than all our competitors. The high orbit does a few things we have NEVER done before, It utilizes the properties of encap products that we were not able to utilize before in that is quickly strips the fiber of all soils an stickies, which COULD NOT be done well with the lower orbit machines. I eliminated tip blooming because the orbit pulls the fiber to its full extent before coming back on its orbit. This has given us a quality of clean tha t is superior to what you see in the video above, that is all with the SLOWER orbit machines.
The Trinity machines have also given us speeds of clean we have never seen before, I have a video of cleaning commercial carpet at a rate of making $1125.00 an hour at 15cents a square foot. Here is that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ioe4Ykqrb2g&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ioe4Ykqrb2g&feature=plcp)
Use this scenario, if your encapping a whole house there's nowhere to remove any furniture out of the rooms, so your pulling it away from walls and cleaning behind then putting back. If your not going back 24 hrs later to post vac your relying on the customer to a) have a decent enough vac and b) they would need to move all the furniture again to remove all the crystalized crap been left behind by encapping. Just wont happen. We all know that most customers don't even vac behind furniture anyway.
No, don't use that scenario, first off, very limited soils on carpet under furniture, the encap solution has no negative impact on carpet, so they do not only not have to vac under the furniture, it indeed protects the carpets because it HASN"T be vacuumed out. Encapping does put dirt in little baggies ya know, encap strips the fibers and coats them as to eliminate the soil from reattaching to the fibers. Yes it is there to be vacuumed up, but where there is not usage, vacuuming is not needed nor required. In the traffic lanes it is readily vacuumed up, all we have done it turn the stickies into particulate soils that removed easily.
Also I don't know where this idea of "they clean more often over there" comes from, many customers do clean once every year or 18 months, but also many DON'T we get the same filth you all do. This is just carpet cleaning guys, and like I said, no knock on any system, just more than one way to skin a cat and skin it well. The comments usually just show fear of the unknown, but also probably (unintentionally) say negative things about what they don't understand.
Here is a video of the Trinity Working http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzoeW6oh4Ew&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzoeW6oh4Ew&feature=plcp)
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good vids john but they all seem to be commercial low profile carpets , are they as effective on deep pile domestics, do you have any vids..thanks
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I am sure I can find some, several other Trinity users also have put vids up on YOUTUBE, so I will look for some.
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John i will comment fully on the vids when i have watched them a few times. I have got to say though in the first vid, alot of the pictures show good clean carpets with an op machine next to them, but clearly there are wand marks in the carpet that have been made using a hwe machine and a wand and not by a rotarty or op machine, which looks a bit fake to me.
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Come on Paul, not one HWE mark in those videos, those are all vacuum marks, we vacuum immediately after cleaning.
Do you think all Americans scoundrels?
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Paul thinks that everyone apart from him....
on second thoughts...
Paul thinks everyone is a scoundrel ;D
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Paul's a scouters so everyone is a scoundrel ;D
Shaun
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Paul's usually right, tho :o
But you'vre got to take these videos and the claims made by these fringe systems with a pinch of salt because you don't know the circumstances, the type of carpet, soil conditions and how much is waffle, wishful thinking, or fact. Claiming a carpet that is choked with grease can be cleaned with Encap is just a joke. I only wish it were as easy as it was in the video and if it was we'd all be buying them and binning our Titan 875's and RX20's. ;D
Simon
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Ive yet to see a vacuum cleaner make a v wand shape in a carpet like that, you must have special vaccums that also can be used on wet carpet. We have them on the end of 2inch vac pipe :D
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If bonnet cleaning was a thorough cleaning system as has been suggested then we would have been given logical proof based on the science of cleaning not subjective comments such as ....
I know someone who has a truckmount and has bought a trinity machine.... so it must work!
or ....watch this video of a carpet that is been cleaned
these comments are not proof a system works.
If this debate was on HWE Cleaning by now the full process of how the dirt is removed would have been explained, but if all these pages no one has tried to explain how a bonnet removes the dirt from the full length of a fibre right to the base of the pile.
One fallacy that has been put forward is that if the carpet 'looks clean' the customer is happy, and if the customers calls us because the carpet 'looks dirty' all we need to do is remedy that problem, but the appearance is a symptom of the real problem.
If we went to the doctor with chest pains would we be happy if he just said.... take this pill and you will not feel the pain .....after all he has dealt with the symptom or would we want him to address the cause of the pain, it's the same with carpet cleaning, although the customer calls us because the carpet only 'looks' dirty the don't just want the symptom to be gone they want the cause to be dealt with... They want actual clean carpets not the appearance of clean carpets
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Hi Guys
I have one very good customer where they will not allow HWE, past bad experiences and only pad systems.
I use my Dry 60 system, which is basically using the Texatherm(older version) with different chemicals.
The client loves it and the results are impressive but common sense suggests I cannot be removing as much dirt as HWE.
This is the dilemma, I am seriously thinking of buying an oscialllating system and would love to try it on the very greasy carpets at this customer.
Cheers
Doug
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If we went to the doctor with chest pains would we be happy if he just said.... take this pill and you will not feel the pain .....after all he has dealt with the symptom or would we want him to address the cause of the pain, it's the same with carpet cleaning, although the customer calls us because the carpet only 'looks' dirty the don't just want the symptom to be gone they want the cause to be dealt with... They want actual clean carpets not the appearance of clean carpets
that has to be the crappest analogy yet....
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Of course you will say that, a typical response from some one who can't give a intelengent answer to how bonnet cleaning removes dirt, you've has plenty of oppertunuty to explain but obviously you prefer tp ignore any awkward question and just give flippant answers
Hoe does bonnet cleaning remove dirt? Please please explain
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As I am unable to give you an intelligent answer Dr Mike perhaps you can work it out yourself.
I find it incredible that you can, all by yourself, decry a perfectly legitimate cleaning system. Whilst comparing a decision to have your carpet cleaned with a visit to the Doctors.....
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Ha Ha ... only a few posts by John Geurkink on Cleantalk and he was calling it a cult and left ....
quick to figure that out ;D
Some go in and are never seen again ... :o
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As I am unable to give you an intelligent answer Dr Mike perhaps you can work it out yourself.
I find it incredible that you can, all by yourself, decry a perfectly legitimate cleaning system. Whilst comparing a decision to have your carpet cleaned with a visit to the Doctors.....
Still no explanation and still flippant answers, Don't you think everyone is reading this and thinking why doesn't hector just explain how bonnets clean, the fact that you constantly evoid the question and refuse to explain speaks volumes
I await your next flippant and piontless answer, as we all know you cannot give a credible explanation
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let me try it in words of few syllables so that you might just understand...
dirt in carpet, released by chemicals and agitation....
clean bonnet on buffer...
buffer goes round and round on carpet...
buffer stops
bonnet has dirt on it that it did not have before being in contact with carpet..
dirt from carpet is now on bonnett
QED
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VAC VAC VAC most loose soils Recovered, Prespray attack the rest of soils i'e stains etc the pad chemical and bonnet process all work together to pick up soils Simple and as hector said clean pad turns dirty because it pick up the dirt and the chemical stops the dirt reattaching itself which is why pads are designed to attract and pick up the dirt you don't see carpets made from microfibre do you.
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VAC VAC VAC most loose soils Recovered, Prespray attack the rest of soils i'e stains etc the pad chemical and bonnet process all work together to pick up soils Simple and as hector said clean pad turns dirty because it pick up the dirt and the chemical stops the dirt reattaching itself which is why pads are designed to attract and pick up the dirt you don't see carpets made from microfibre do you.
Erm, no, it picks up some, but by no means all of the soil and very much less than a hwse system would, to believe anything is simply delusional. The trouble with LM is that it is being put to uses it wasn't designed for. As a low moisture maintenance system it is excellent, but as an out and out cleaning system is something a professional carpet cleaner would turn to only when the situation calls for it, which is why most carpet cleaners use other, far more effective systems the majority of the time.
Simon
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let me try it in words of few syllables so that you might just understand...
dirt in carpet, released by chemicals and agitation....
clean bonnet on buffer...
buffer goes round and round on carpet...
buffer stops
bonnet has dirt on it that it did not have before being in contact with carpet..
dirt from carpet is now on bonnett
QED
Thanks for keeping it simple. just one point, how does it remove the dirt from the part of the carpet fibre that the bonnet doesn't touch?
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Well i would think the Vac process sucks soils up and to the surface or are you saying soils won't come to the surface unless water is present ?
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Well i would think the Vac process sucks soils up and to the surface or are you saying soils won't come to the surface unless water is present ?
Have you ever used the hwe system to clean a carpet?
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No and i don't intend too iv'e done pubs with Blacktop everywere using DF and yes when i finished no blacktop and nice clean carpets :)
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How do you deal with odours if you only use LM?
Or urine, poo, blood, vomit etc?
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Odours, Chem has built in deoderiser and if i came across the rest i would get my small extraction machine for the area then LM after and Blood would be Cold Water rinse then LM.
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why bring two cleaning systems in to the house? seems like more hassle to me.
Deoderisers will just mask the bad odours they will re-occour if not fully extracted from the carpet.
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colloidals remove the odours Tony..
Mike the same way that your system cleans the bits it misses.
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I use colloidals too.
I use Nemsis odour neutrilser, but I find that extracting the crap out of the carpet first, before applying the colloidal works better. Having said that, its the only way I have used Nemsis but thats what it says to do on the back of the bottle ;D
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The restaurant we did was so greasy that the grease wasn't just on the surface, but all the way through the pile in the traffic lanes, how would / could encap deal with that?
Don't get me wrong, I like encap in certain situations, but I'm a bit too fond of putting the dirt where is belongs, down the drain to use it across the board when people are paying good money to have their carpet 'cleaned.'
If we are faced with this scenario on a synthetic carpet we use Chemspec Enzyme Carpet Shampoo boosted with Energizer and Traffic Lane Cleaner through a Cimex with a quick pad off to finish. Obviously if this was a wool carpet this wouldn't be the preferred method. Perhaps as the cleaning phase but we would then rinse out the enzymes. On synthetics a good scrub and pad with these products is all that's required.
I am fortunate enough to own (or have owned and moved on from) every system available and as stated previously agree that the system that suits that particular job, budget and requiment should be used.
As I operate exclusively in the commercial sector (office buildings) nobody will pay the money for full cleaning when presented with the option. Most of the contracts we do already use SEBO BS36 vacs (or equiv), partly down to us and the carpet manufacturers specifying them, so post vac removal of polymer and in some cases Pre-vac isn't required as they prefer to do those stages in house to further reduce cost.
In every situation I have used HWE on heavily soiled office carpet tiles we have always returned and pad/Encap cleaned the following day to get the Improvement in appearance we desire. This is even with post padding on the first visit. We actually now feel that forcing the carpet to wick back results in more complete soil removal. We tend nowadays to only HWE as the first clean in a maintenance program to "empty out" the carpet prior to continuing with pad Encap (we use an encapsulating rinse in our extractors also). I have sites that haven't required a further extraction clean in 15 years with quarterly visits and good in house vacuuming.
Although we use LM cleaning more than 95% of the time it wouldn't be my first choice for domestic carpets however we have it should there be a need for it. We also have dry compound but that hasn't been used in over 2 years now.
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why bring two cleaning systems in to the house? seems like more hassle to me.
Deoderisers will just mask the bad odours they will re-occour if not fully extracted from the carpet.
I only bring two machines in if needed very rarely and bad odours are neutrilised not masked and smells can be caused by bacteria so kill the bacteria kill the smell in the 3 years iv'e used DF never had a call back saying my carpet still smells :)
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If we are faced with this scenario on a synthetic carpet we use Chemspec Enzyme Carpet Shampoo boosted with Energizer and Traffic Lane Cleaner through a Cimex with a quick pad off to finish. Obviously if this was a wool carpet this wouldn't be the preferred method. Perhaps as the cleaning phase but we would then rinse out the enzymes. On synthetics a good scrub and pad with these products is all that's required.
Hang on a second, you dissolve the grease with enzyme carpet shampoo and energiser which dissolves the grease then use a pad to spread it all over the carpet again???? Granted some of it will be absorbed into the pad, but come on, IMO that is stretching credibility to breaking point. :o an rx20 attached to a TM, or wand and portable will flush the dissolved grease out of the carpet.
Simon
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I'm with Jamie. I've done a few LM commercial jobs when i prefer to quickly pre HWE rather than pre dry vac and encap. It just felt right to do.
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Although we use LM cleaning more than 95% of the time it wouldn't be my first choice for domestic carpets however we have it should there be a need for it. We also have dry compound but that hasn't been used in over 2 years now.
Jamie all iv'e had is DF so 1st and only choice and 90% my jobs are domestic never had a problem mate.
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I'm with Jamie. I've done a few LM commercial jobs when i prefer to quickly pre HWE rather than pre dry vac and encap. It just felt right to do.
So what your saying is you don't prevac i thought no matter what cleaning equipment you use prevac is a must ???
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The first time I used HWE as a preclean prior to Encap was in a school. I was pushing around a BS36 and I had a feeling I was wasting my time. Then setup HWE and used a low PSI and quickly went over. The flushing nature removed far more soils.
After that I encapped it and it was perfect.
I did pre vac it.... prevac with water
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The restaurant we did was so greasy that the grease wasn't just on the surface, but all the way through the pile in the traffic lanes, how would / could encap deal with that?
Don't get me wrong, I like encap in certain situations, but I'm a bit too fond of putting the dirt where is belongs, down the drain to use it across the board when people are paying good money to have their carpet 'cleaned.'
If we are faced with this scenario on a synthetic carpet we use Chemspec Enzyme Carpet Shampoo boosted with Energizer and Traffic Lane Cleaner through a Cimex with a quick pad off to finish. Obviously if this was a wool carpet this wouldn't be the preferred method. Perhaps as the cleaning phase but we would then rinse out the enzymes. On synthetics a good scrub and pad with these products is all that's required.
I am fortunate enough to own (or have owned and moved on from) every system available and as stated previously agree that the system that suits that particular job, budget and requiment should be used.
As I operate exclusively in the commercial sector (office buildings) nobody will pay the money for full cleaning when presented with the option. Most of the contracts we do already use SEBO BS36 vacs (or equiv), partly down to us and the carpet manufacturers specifying them, so post vac removal of polymer and in some cases Pre-vac isn't required as they prefer to do those stages in house to further reduce cost.
In every situation I have used HWE on heavily soiled office carpet tiles we have always returned and pad/Encap cleaned the following day to get the Improvement in appearance we desire. This is even with post padding on the first visit. We actually now feel that forcing the carpet to wick back results in more complete soil removal. We tend nowadays to only HWE as the first clean in a maintenance program to "empty out" the carpet prior to continuing with pad Encap (we use an encapsulating rinse in our extractors also). I have sites that haven't required a further extraction clean in 15 years with quarterly visits and good in house vacuuming.
Although we use LM cleaning more than 95% of the time it wouldn't be my first choice for domestic carpets however we have it should there be a need for it. We also have dry compound but that hasn't been used in over 2 years now.
Ahh Jamie - the voice of reason and common sense. I 100% agree with what you say. Low moisture cleaning for low profile man made commercials and HWE for residentials ( especially wool). There will always be some exceptions to this but in the main it is how I see it in this country.
By the way does HWE stand for Hot water Encap when using Chempsec liquid high heat?
Nigel
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I agree with that, up to a point, provided you can get it clean with a padding system, sometimes, especially on a first clean where the carpet is filthy, you have no other choice than to hwse it and then pad it from there on provided they don't leave it too long.
Simon
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The first time I used HWE as a preclean prior to Encap was in a school. I was pushing around a BS36 and I had a feeling I was wasting my time. Then setup HWE and used a low PSI and quickly went over. The flushing nature removed far more soils.
After that I encapped it and it was perfect.
I did pre vac it.... prevac with water
Explain how you removed far more soils did you weigh the hoover bag or look at colour of water you don't know mate. :)
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Common sense
If I removed more soils with my vacuum I'd be changing the bag a hell of a lot more.
If all I got was a little brown bag of dust from a day of truckmount extraction I'd sell it a just LM
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No you dont change the bag alot more because it isn't full of water :)
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Well I've got all the systems
BS36
Standard Rotary and encap products
Orbital Rotary
Triple Vac Portable
Truckmount
And I LIKE TO do it that way because it works best.... as opposed to HAVE TO doing it a particular way.
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and on that subject put a ashtray in 5 litres of water it'll turn black how much is dirt and how much is water ? ???
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Put a dirty pad in a bucket of water and it will turn black too...
Encapping is my weapon of choice for commercial but it has its limits, there's no sales patter or other that can refute that
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Put a dirty pad in a bucket of water and it will turn black too...
Encapping is my weapon of choice for commercial but it has its limits, there's no sales patter or other that can refute that
you forgot to add IMO Warren..... ;)
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I agree with that, up to a point, provided you can get it clean with a padding system, sometimes, especially on a first clean where the carpet is filthy, you have no other choice than to hwse it and then pad it from there on provided they don't leave it too long.
Simon
I think I'll retract that.
Surely you deal with every job on its merits and choose the system / technique that is going to produce the best possible result given the condition of the carpet, provided of course that you have a choice of equipment in the first place. That to me is far more sensible than a simple one size fits all approach saying, LM for man made commercials and HWSE for wool. There have been countless commercial low profile jobs that we've started with LM but the result hasn't been satifactory and ended up with the TM and RX and got an outstanding result. (we don't price carpet cleaning on a particular system, just on getting the bloody thing clean by wahtever means)
We've just cleaned 1200 sqm of very dirty, dusty and old brown carpet tiles this weekend. After having done a number of test patches with different methods over a few weeks found that Encap produced the best visual result. The carpet was in effect un-cleanable with any other method. Had we not had the means to Encap we wouldn't have got that very lucrative job, but does that mean that tomorrow we'll be encapping everything, not a chance, but if encap was all I had I'd have no other choice and I'd been using the wrong system and selling my customers short, something I will never do for the sake of a few litres of LPG.
Simon
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I agree with that, up to a point, provided you can get it clean with a padding system, sometimes, especially on a first clean where the carpet is filthy, you have no other choice than to hwse it and then pad it from there on provided they don't leave it too long.
Simon
I think I'll retract that.
Surely you deal with every job on its merits and choose the system / technique that is going to produce the best possible result given the condition of the carpet, provided of course that you have a choice of equipment in the first place. That to me is far more sensible than a simple one size fits all approach saying, LM for man made commercials and HWSE for wool. There have been countless commercial low profile jobs that we've started with LM but the result hasn't been satifactory and ended up with the TM and RX and got an outstanding result. (we don't price carpet cleaning on a particular system, just on getting the bloody thing clean by wahtever means)
We've just cleaned 1200 sqm of very dirty, dusty and old brown carpet tiles this weekend. After having done a number of test patches with different methods over a few weeks found that Encap produced the best visual result. The carpet was in effect un-cleanable with any other method. Had we not had the means to Encap we wouldn't have got that very lucrative job, but does that mean that tomorrow we'll be encapping everything, not a chance, but if encap was all I had I'd have no other choice and I'd been using the wrong system and selling my customers short, something I will never do for the sake of a few litres of LPG.
Simon
And using lm encap got the carpet clean and job done or did you tell them just looks clean Thankyou.
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By the way does HWE stand for Hot water Encap when using Chempsec liquid high heat?
Yes
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If we are faced with this scenario on a synthetic carpet we use Chemspec Enzyme Carpet Shampoo boosted with Energizer and Traffic Lane Cleaner through a Cimex with a quick pad off to finish. Obviously if this was a wool carpet this wouldn't be the preferred method. Perhaps as the cleaning phase but we would then rinse out the enzymes. On synthetics a good scrub and pad with these products is all that's required.
Hang on a second, you dissolve the grease with enzyme carpet shampoo and energiser which dissolves the grease then use a pad to spread it all over the carpet again???? Granted some of it will be absorbed into the pad, but come on, IMO that is stretching credibility to breaking point. :o an rx20 attached to a TM, or wand and portable will flush the dissolved grease out of the carpet.
Simon
Almost. We break down the grease with the traffic lane cleaner, the oxidiser helps with the proteins and the enzymes to digest it.
Anything residual is crystallised.
The bonnets are merely to dry it off a little.
The reality is re-soiling will occur in the same time regardless of how clean we get it due to the nature of the business and usually maintenance of the kitchen floors being poor and oils getting tracked out.
There is a degree of perception in all of this however.
To some a restaurant job a 40-100m2 Indian/Chinese with Belgian Wilton on the high street.
To me it's 1000m2 of carpet tiles in a sealed building with no way to turn the air con on.
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This thread totally reminds me of postings back in the 90's over here on this side the pond.
I expect HWE to be the most used there, I expect HWE guys to be passionate, however, I also know they have little understanding of where LM has gone to in recent years.
No one is saying HWE is not good, good grief but I will tell ya this, it isn't the KING many think it is, and in many of the cases just described in the last couple pages, the misconception of LM are amazing.
But one thing is for sure, it sure got a lot of postings in a short time...LOL
If you all don't mind, I would sure love to debate this a LOT more.
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just a thought but how many carpet manufacturers recommend lm/bonnet cleaning on their carpets? 0
how many recommend hwe? Most of them, but hey, what would they know
Can't deny that Dave L is holding back money he owes me until I posted this lol
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just a thought but how many carpet manufacturers recommend lm/bonnet cleaning on their carpets? 0
Gaskells used to recommend Dry Fusion in the late 90s.
Not sure if that is still the case.
Interface now endorse "anything from the range" by Prochem or Chemspec
These are both commercial carpet manufacturers.
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Surprised by interface, they were very aggressive with their warranties re using rotaries for a long time. What about shaw industries?
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Good morning madam and thanks for calling,
We have a modern cleaning system which leaves your carpets almost dry and back in use immediately. We don't have to leave doors open, we don't have to trail large hoses through your home, we don't need to spray litres of water on your carpets, we won't upset your neighbours with loud machinery, we will take less than half the time our water extraction method takes, as we clean the products we use will deodorise and protect your carpet from any spills you might have, leaving it with a gentle and subtle aroma.
Your carpets will look and feel and smell as good any other cleaning method, possibly better.
We still have our wet system machines, but for the reasons I just mentioned I'd recommend our new method ..............
Which will she choose ?????????????????
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Good morning madam and thanks for calling,
We have a modern cleaning system which leaves your carpets almost dry and back in use immediately. We don't have to leave doors open, we don't have to trail large hoses through your home, we don't need to spray litres of water on your carpets, we won't upset your neighbours with loud machinery, we will take less than half the time our water extraction method takes, as we clean the products we use will deodorise and protect your carpet from any spills you might have, leaving it with a gentle and subtle aroma.
Your carpets will look and feel and smell as good any other cleaning method, possibly better.
But your carpet won't actually be clean, most of the dirt will still be there....it will only look clean
We still have our wet system machines, but for the reasons I just mentioned I'd recommend our new method ..............
Which will she choose ?????????????????
Now you've told her the truth which will she chose????????
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but your system does not remove all the dirt either Mike... so would you say that ??
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Spot on, Mr Halliday ;D
I love these debates with the fringe elements, it's fascinating how they believe with such cult fervour that LM methods actually clean carpets, when we all know that they don't, I only have to empty my TM recovery tank to be reminded of that, especially when you think how could all that dirt and sludge could be removed with a pad, or brush. :o There's only one place dirt, that's down a drain.
Simon
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Hector I would, I often explain the downside to HWE I find it stop complaints
I tell them I will do my best to get out as much dirt as possible,
I have a sprayborg, a rotory, an orbital challenger/lowboy, Host and VS dry foam machines, I would love to be able to use these machine as my only system and in the past have tried but they do nt give the quality of clean I want, sometimes they did but not all the time
On domestics HWE constantly removes more dirt than L/M if it didn't I wouldn't use it
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Interface stipulate that "bonnet or similar " systems should not be used. This is on their needle point carpet tiles and Super Floor S I think. It does say however that HWE is to be used.
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But your carpet won't actually be clean, most of the dirt will still be there....it will only look clean
Seems you have fallen for the party line Mr. Halliday.. LOL
Your lack of understanding in this surprises me. If you think your HWE gets the soil out, then you are living in Utopia.
NOBODY removes all the soil from a gravity fed medium like carpets.
Do you even understand HOW LM or OP encap removes soils?
If so please explain.
I love these debates with the fringe elements, it's fascinating how they believe with such cult fervour that LM methods actually clean carpets, when we all know that they don't,
Fringe elements...LOL that is a good one, if you KNOW they don't then I dare say you don't know too much about LM methods.
Your blanket statements are arrogant to a huge number of people who use not only LM or OP who use it a little or a lot.
39 Years I have listened to this stuff, and now my favorite sales are to HWE guys, we SELL it for commercial, but once they get to know us we SUGGEST they try it on domestic carpets... funny how most Trinity CM buyers soon either retire or have very limited use of there TM's.
But I understand, if that is what you know, that is what you believe, however that doesn't make it SO!
Several mills are not specific, some say NO to OP, but THEIR problem is, a claim made against OP must be proven, I know of no claims won against OP to date, the lower orbit machines can TIP BLOOM if the operator doesn't know what he is doing, however the newer large orbit machines do not tip bloom at all.
When I have I will tell you of when I went to Shaw with my machines and how that worked out... it is an eye opener.
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John I am so glad you came a long :) :)
On the video you posted you say at approx 30secs you say "Next you see us clean with a tile & grout brush..... as you can see the results are simply amazing"
Can you explain whn using a tile & grout brush (that is a pure scrubbing implement) where the dirt has gone? and has the brush removed any dirt? If this brush has not removed any dirt how can you say it has cleaned the carpet, let alone given 'simply amazing ' results?
The truth of this matter is I want to be proven wrong, I want to be educated, you obviously are an expert on your chosen system ( and I say that with no sarcasm intended)
my only problem with LM is its ability to remove dirt from a deep pile carpet which has a depth of pile that a bonnet cannot touch, so has no way of transferring dirt from the carpet onto the bonnet. How does a bonnet remove the dirt from deep down in the carpet pile ?
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Thank you for that straight forward question Mike.
The restaurant video is straight encap, so what are we doing?
First off the removing of soil in straight encap is done by the product, NOT the machine, the machine can only prepare the carpet to be cleaned.
For example, we all know 79% of soil is particulate that is vacuumed up, the rest is stuck to the fibers.
So what can LM do to remove that soil?
We use the encap solution along with extreme agitation to strip the stickies and soils from the carpet.
Then because we have "sloshed" this product at super high speed through all the fibers and stripped them, now we let it dry.
Once dried, the fibers are coated as to insure no wickbacks, plus the soils and stickies are not coated with a polymer, a good polymer will
now dry, crystalized and then the stickies and soil have also become "particulate" soils, again, easily removed by vacuuming.
Another debate is Deep pile carpet, if you knew how much moisture was moving at incredible rates of "sloshing" for lack of a better word through the fibers, you will understand we don't so much spray the carpet as much as we do keep enough moisture in the pad itself. You can NOT miss stripping the fibers when using this much agitation and moisture together. That is another reason many will tell you, either encap works or it doesn't the idea of it only working on commercial carpets is a misnomer of not understanding what is happening under the machine when it is over the carpet. You don't move anymore water through the carpet with HWE than you do with LM, the difference is, with LM you have the added agitation PLUS that moisture is sloshing side to side at high speed whipping through all the carpet fibers. The carpet dries in an hour or less because we keep the moisture MOVING along with the pad.
There is not that much difference (excluding the agitation) to what is going on between the wand and the carpet as there is between the pad and the carpet.
Hope this helps.
More cleaning pics:
http://trinityrenewalsystems.com/videos/youtube-videos/?tubepress_page=2 (http://trinityrenewalsystems.com/videos/youtube-videos/?tubepress_page=2)
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Then because we have "sloshed" this product at super high speed through all the fibers and stripped them, now we let it dry.
Once dried, the fibers are coated as to insure no wickbacks, plus the soils and stickies are not coated with a polymer, a good polymer will
now dry, crystalized and then the stickies and soil have also become "particulate" soils, again, easily removed by vacuuming
But John on your first video the guys are all vaccing wet/damp carpets.... Why?
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Hector I would, I often explain the downside to HWE I find it stop complaints
I tell them I will do my best to get out as much dirt as possible,
I have a sprayborg, a rotory, an orbital challenger/lowboy, Host and VS dry foam machines, I would love to be able to use these machine as my only system and in the past have tried but they do nt give the quality of clean I want, sometimes they did but not all the time
On domestics HWE constantly removes more dirt than L/M if it didn't I wouldn't use it
Totally agree with that. I ve several systems in place and use what is best for the given situation, based on experience and skill ( also time and cost) and get the end result required by the customer.
NOT ONE SYSTEM WILL EVER DO ALL........ :)
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But John on your first video the guys are all vaccing wet/damp carpets.... Why?
To groom the carpet, the vacuuming is not required immediately after the cleaning, once particulate, the soil can be removed
in the regular vacuuming rotation.
On domestics HWE constantly removes more dirt than L/M if it didn't I wouldn't use it
Proof of that?
I chuckle at the debate of who gets out more, if one can make the carpet look cleaner, last longer, kill off any bacteria or viri and please the customer to the point they never look elsewhere, what exactly is the problem?
I have gone directly to TM manufactures and cleaned after their BEST shot, and removed plenty more soil... EVERYTIME, not just once in a while, HOWEVER, they can do the same after me, and then again me after that and on and on.
The very idea that you are totally cleaning a gravity fed medium is a joke and a poor one at that.
That fallacy is promoted by the TM manufactures themselves and quite frankly it is BS, not only BS but so very easy to PROVE to be BS.
I have found far too many cleaners over the years that accept what they have been taught instead if INSPECTING their own work for themselves.
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The problem we have here is everything is open to lies and exqgeration,
when you say you have been to truckmount manufactuers and every time you have cleaned after a TM you have removed plenty more soil EVERTIME.
I have followed LM operators and once they have finished I removed the carpet and weighed it then cleaned it my self. The carpet in all cases wieghed at least 17.897% less after I had cleaned it, this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt my system removes more dirt.
how can you argue against my proof? unless you are going to blatantly accuse me of lying.
All we can go on is the post so far from members who have started using LM then had to change to the TM & RX20 to achieve acceptable result, or we're they lying?
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Hi Guys
The cleanliness of a carpet is partlysubjective which allows any number of manufacturers of machines and chemicals to make whatever claims they wish.
To test properly would be very difficult, criteria would have to be agreed and it would be expensive.
Common sense woulsd suggest HWE removes more soil, but then common sense said the world was square once!
Cheers
Doug
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Haha, Well done Sir Isaac, genius (yes thats you Doug, i know how modest you are)
Pete
Great debate by the way with some real expert talkers (present company accepted of course ;D
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thanks for the replies everyone but a simple yes or no would,ve done.. ;D
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But John on your first video the guys are all vaccing wet/damp carpets.... Why?
To groom the carpet, the vacuuming is not required immediately after the cleaning, once particulate, the soil can be removed
in the regular vacuuming rotation.
So you're not actually taking ANYTHING out of the carpet in the so called cleaning process, what a joke.
The restaurant we cleaned the other day with a Titan 875 and RX20 had huge grease build ups in the traffic lanes to the point where the tiles were choked with grease. The dirt that came out of it was black and you're trying to tell us all of that technology and power is unnecessary because had we gone over it with a Trinity (that's what I assume you're trying to sell us) and an encap solution the same level of dirt would simply disappear and get encapsulated to then await the next vaccing by the in house cleaner, most of whom only have a Henry.
Next you'll be trying to tell us that Elvis is alive and kicking and working undercover in Moscow for the CIA posing as a Macedonian fish fillet-er. ;D
Simon
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Simon, you actually just filled me with joy reading that, the ending was sublime and I'm still laughing
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and that was geuine as I'm sure the alternative crossed your mind
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It did, but - I'm glad it didn't.
I think in our case bygones need to be bygones ;)
Simon
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absolutely ;)
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:o is this the same Pete Sweeney
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Next you'll be trying to tell us that Elvis is alive and kicking and working undercover in Moscow for the CIA posing as a Macedonian fish fillet-er. ;D
Simon
That is covered by the official secrets act Simon.......... :o
You will have your collar felt in the next few days...
I look forward to watching it happen ;D ;D
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We killed this thread with our mills & Boon ending Simon don't you think ;D
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Think so, darling....kiss kiss ;D
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Ok now im gonna be sick
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Don't worry, Mossy, you can always encap it, works in every situation, you know ;)
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You been looking in the mirror again?
Shaun
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Yep, it was all orchestrated folks, Simon and I spoke earlier and we thought that we could make some good of other good for goodness sake, sorry, went into a bit of a meditative state but bought myself back (it's the training). Anyway, the thought of Paul reaching over a toilet at my hand was too much to resist ;D
and that olive branch extends to you too mate
and dont all start crying into your laptops, your partners will never respect you again and it will never quite work the same, despite all the love it holds for you ;D ;D
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:-* Pete and i thought you had gone to the land where time had forgotten with Dave Ingram :D
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Perhaps dave isn't as sad as us lot or perhaps he may come to the newly found 'love in' ;D
Shaun
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Shaun, ive heard on the grapevine that he s your gay lover :)
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Simon, I see sarcasm is your best comeback?
Fortunately those comments don't bother me, that is usually the reaction to someone doing a equal or better job with a lot less cost, I call it defending your purchase, and you do seem to be good at that.
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John it's hard for us uk cleaners to acknowledge padding per se as we just don't do enough of it therefore most find it hard to envisage that we can do an equally great job compared to our chosen trusted systems.
Shaun
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I understand that Shaun, however is it wrong to LEARN how to clean as well with LM?
Ok, here is my opinon, I hate gurus, because to me that is someone who just quit learning and started preachin' and teachin'..LOL
So, I like to talk about LM, however I am willing to back up what I say, I ain't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.
I does amaze me though how many will slam what they have never used or tried...
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Hi John
Really is time to send over one of these machines and let it be tested.
Otherwise the comment about critiscising something which hasn't been used cannot be valid.
Cheers
Doug
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Will work on it Doug, hey is that a sprinter you areu sing, I had one for several years and loved it.
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Hi John
Can I suggest you allow an experienced CC to trial it rather than a supplier who may/will depending on who it is, put a marketing spin on any results. To be credible it needs to be done in a scientific way with no material gain for the tester.
Cheers
Doug
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THICK SKIN ESSENTIAL
I've been following o/p debates for several years on American /Canadian forums with John G being the main man.
What's not immediately apparent on here is the engineering and product development that's gone into his products .
It's easy to come out with sarcastic comments and suggestions that you have to lift a carpet and weigh it to PROVE YOUR POINT or refuse to accept what's in front of your eyes.
Being pedantic or looking for what MIGHT be a c**** in some one's written comment is equally immature and smacks of PANIC about long held beliefs and DOUBT about the massive investment YOU MIGHT NEVER HAVE HAD TO MAKE.
Any one entering this industry will be MORE confused by the defensive postings on a system that might just be PAST IT'S SELL BY DATE or in a particular form, ie, T/M'ing
which could be equated to TAKING A HAMMER TO CRACK AN EGG.
Of course T/M machines have their place, eg, cleaning massive ships, but the New generation of powerful portables are more than capable of matching then on DAY TO DAY cleaning tasks and having the BEST O/P machines ( not necessarily ) the NEWEST OR FANCIEST but the BEST PERFORMING machines some one will be in a position to offer AS GOOD A CLEAN AS ANY OTHER SYSTEM but with huge advantages, particularly the lower capital cost.
Unfortunately........
No matter what you post on here you will upset or offend some one and they will come at you ( verbally ) with all guns blazing which is how you behave when your beliefs or person is under threat.
Good to see some hatchets being buried.......
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Robert,
Good post.
I accept some of what has been said about op machines and doubtless they have their place in the tool box a well equipped carpet cleaner has available to him. Many of us have built hugely successful businesses by delivering top quality carpet cleaning by whatever means is required to get the job done, the job being - a clean carpet.
Simon
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Great post Robert, and I apologize if I am getting off to a bad start here, I am rather passionate (duh), but I don't mean to offend anyone.
I love my method as most of you love yours. And I do not take debates personally.
I actually like this Simon guy, he is a feisty fella!
John Geurkink.
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Easy now, don't go getting all lovey-dovey on me now. Next thing you know I'll have sold my Titan 875 and have become a devout trinity encapping devotee ;D
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Hi folks I have extraction machine and dry fusion my work is 90% domestic I must admit I would love to clean all carpets LM but I just can't . I nearly always find a couple of marks I would need to get a spotting machine in for so more often than not I will just set up hwe. I've not yet used encap but will give it a go soon although I don't see it's going to be quicker if you have to wate for it to dry then vacc again . I would love to have one system for all my jobs but as yet it's not possible .what we need to see is some vids of LM cleaning in filthy houses because I can't find any del
Pete leave Simon alone and make up with j
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Bennymon
When you encap you don't hang about waiting for it to dry..................you finish the encapping and go to your next job.
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But people keep saying they vacc after ??? So it's Pre vacc clean job done ??? And would you use it on a dirty 3 bed semi ??? Cheers. Del
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Yes Benny did a 3 bed yesterday and the front door was straight into the lounge.... Minging but came up lovely, carpet was 80/20.....
I always suggest to the customer to vac in about 2 hours after encap. When they look and say how clean it is, if you tell them it will be even brighter when they vac, they usually do.
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Cheers hector I have the dry fusion machine do you think it would do a better job if I used an encap solution . Del
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never used a DF machine Benny... but...... why not try it?? what do you have to lose?
;D
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Use a pad with a little more agitation than the standard DF white/red pads to get best results.