Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: colley614 on May 19, 2012, 01:19:20 pm
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Hi Guys,
Been out doing first cleans this week. I'm using a car battery at the moment on my system but I'm finding that the pump keeps cutting in and out and flashing 'BAT'. If I turn the pump to 0 it reads 12.5 volts but when the pumps running it reads 11.1. I'm presuming that the battery is not powerful enough to run the pump but just after confirmation from someone in the know before I replace?
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Yes replace needs 12.8 v min to run
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Thought so, thanks! I'll get myself a deep cycle and a split relay as soon as possible.
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11.1v indicates that the battery is flat.
I understand that the new Spring controllers have reset their cutout figure to 10.5v without issue.
Before replacing the battery ask:
What has changed recently? In other words, did your battery used to last but it doesn't now? If so, are you doing something different to before, such as not charging your battery as regularily as you used to?
How old is the battery? What size is it (amp hour rating)?
Our Shurflo pumps will draw between 3 and 5 amps per hour depending on what our controller settings are. If we are working our pumps for 5 hours working time, then we are going to use 25amps of charge from our battery. If we do this for 3 days an 85 amp leisure battery will theoretically last us 3 days before going flat.
However, if I have been hammering the battery like that I would recharge it every night.
When a nearly flat battery is left to stand, it will show a higher voltage on your tester and will drop voltage the moment it has any load put on it. Years ago, working a battery, letting it recover, and working it some more was a sure way of killing it off quickly.
Sometimes a battery's capacity also drops off. You can recharge a flat battery, shows fully charged on the tester or battery charger, but won't last long. In the case, best to replace the battery.
Most car batteries aren't 'sealed'. They have screw caps which enable you to top up the water. If you take all the caps off and find any chambers have low water, top them up - water must be just over the plates.
If I had to replace a battery, my personal choice is a leisure battery.
Spruce
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Yes replace needs 12.8 v min to run
My battery is a 110 amp Numax Leisure battery. When fully charged with a Numax Intelligent leisure battery charger, it reads 12.8 volts. As I switch the pump on and start to run it for a few minutes, the voltage across the battery drops to 12.1 volts. Once the pump is switched off, the battery voltage will slowly recover to 12.8v.
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Spruce,
Yeah was kind of thinking that the battery was reading full until I put the load on. Then it was hitting 11.1 straight away. This is an old battery now and is a sealed one so I can't top if off. The auto electrician who tested it for me said it had passed but recommended that because its sealed I would have to drill a hole in it to check the water level. He then said I'd need to buy DI water from him until I pointed at my tank and said no thanks I've got 250 ltrs of it there ;D
I won't be tampering with my battery and drilling holes in it. I think its time to replace with a new one, a deep cycle leisure battery and hook it up with a split relay charger. Probably buy a charger just to trickle charge it overnight now and again if its not fully charging.
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Spruce,
Yeah was kind of thinking that the battery was reading full until I put the load on. Then it was hitting 11.1 straight away. This is an old battery now and is a sealed one so I can't top if off. The auto electrician who tested it for me said it had passed but recommended that because its sealed I would have to drill a hole in it to check the water level. He then said I'd need to buy DI water from him until I pointed at my tank and said no thanks I've got 250 ltrs of it there ;D
I won't be tampering with my battery and drilling holes in it. I think its time to replace with a new one, a deep cycle leisure battery and hook it up with a split relay charger. Probably buy a charger just to trickle charge it overnight now and again if its not fully charging.
Agree, just replace it. I certainly don't believe drilling holes in the top of a battery to check water level is good advise - infact its a no no. We are dealing with 2 dangerous products, electricity albeit at a low voltage and acid.
We top up with an intelligent leisure battery charger every couple of days as we don't do enough miles per day to replace what we have used via the split charge relays.
Spruce
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Thanks spruce, you have confirmed what I was presuming. I'll probably have to soldier on this week with a crap battery so I can earn the dosh to replace it....The trials and tribulations of starting out ;D
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Thanks spruce, you have confirmed what I was presuming. I'll probably have to soldier on this week with a crap battery so I can earn the dosh to replace it....The trials and tribulations of starting out ;D
errr sorry to dash your hopes but it never ends always summit to spend ur dosh on ;D ;D
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I know Ian, I'm ordering more leaflets, new battery, charger, split relay, resin, sign writing van, leaflets,resin,membrane,leaflets, resin..New poles, new van.
I know the list is just gonna keep going
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colley, the digi controls always do this, very annoying, I am seriously thinking on going back to manual ones
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Funny you should say that. The lads I used to work with used to leave the vans running to stop this from happening with the Digital one I've got but the old twist ones where fine
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Funny you should say that. The lads I used to work with used to leave the vans running to stop this from happening with the Digital one I've got but the old twist ones where fine
I have this very issue with one on my vans and it drives one of my guys nuts, yet there is nothing wrong with the batteries as there is two of them connected together
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As I mentioned earlier, I understand that the lastest Spring controllers have their cutoff at 10.5v and according to them, cutting the controllers out at this new lower level hasn't caused any battery damage at all.
But I'm sure that Ian Sheppard will confirm this when he see the thread. Maybe kick start the thread on Monday morning if he hasn't replied.
Spruce
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spruce have you got any ideas where to get a deep cycle battery and charger? and also the split relay
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have a look on www.cleaningspot.co.uk good guys really helpful when i bought my streambox last year . MIKE
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spruce have you got any ideas where to get a deep cycle battery and charger? and also the split relay
I was chatting to a member on here the other day when he dropped off a tank, some of the controllers act as a split charger, therefore removing the need to have a separate relay fitted.
I've never used one in the 8 yrs I've been wfp as I was connected to the vehicle battery, thou I'm now setting out a second van, Looking of going this way, could always fit a relay later if the controller doesn't work!
Rob
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spruce have you got any ideas where to get a deep cycle battery and charger? and also the split relay
Our local motor factors ordered our batteries especially for us - it was next day delivery. If you need one straight away, caravan and leisure suppliers should have them ex stock. I would always recommend you buy a good quality one; ie., Lucas, Numax etc.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Numax-85-amp-Leisure-Battery-Caravans-Motorhomes-/180845712424?pt=UK_Cars_Parts_Vehicles_Other_Vehicle_Parts_Accessories_ET&hash=item2a1b3e9428
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NUMAX-TWIN-POST-12V-110-DEEP-CYCLE-LEISURE-BATTERY-MOTORHOME-CARAVAN-BOATS-/200759276439?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2ebe2f7397
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Numax-Connect-and-Forget-12V-10AH-Leisure-Battery-Charger-/190583290276?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item2c5fa639a4
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPLIT-CHARGE-RELAY-12V-30AMP-INTELLIGENT-SELF-SWITCHING-/110882240915?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item19d118b993
or
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-30AMP-SPLIT-CHARGE-RELAY-KIT-SELF-SWITCHING-/180885340901?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item2a1d9b42e5
We have got 2 vans with 85 amp hour Numax batteries - single operator and my van has a 110 amp Numax which is a 2 man operator although its mainly me on my own.
We top the batteries up every couple of days on 2 of the vans as we do very little mileage. The third van does an 18 mile round trip home each night and that seems to keep that battery pretty much fully charged.
The charger comes with a cable that you can bolt onto the positive and negative terminals of the battery which makes it easier to couple up on dark winter nights.
The split charge relay is an intelligent type and comes with easy to fit instructions. It only needs 1 fused wire from your vehicle's battery positive post to the SCR (Split Charge Relay) and then another from the relay to your leisure battery - fused again. 15amp fuses are fine as the leisure battery won't except anything more than a 10 amp charge, even when 1/2 charged. The other SCR that they sell is triggered by the vehicles alternator warning light circuit - they are a pain to fit to be honest and I would stay away from them.
The SCR will need a wire earthed to the body and you will also need to put another earth from the leisure battery negative post to the vehicles body.
Hope that helps.
Spruce
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Spruce,
Have you fitted the split relay yourself, I've literally just been looking at the ones you posted?
I need to sort mine, but a little apprehensive, thought it had to go from the alternator? If it's just a case of attaching to the cables and making a negative, might pluck up the courage :~)
Rob.
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From what I've read, there's two types. One that goes from battery to battery. The other from alternator to battery. I'm going to steer clear of the alternator because knowing me I'll turn my flow controller on and my engine will start and I'll turn the key and my pumps will come on.
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Spruce,
Have you fitted the split relay yourself, I've literally just been looking at the ones you posted?
I need to sort mine, but a little apprehensive, thought it had to go from the alternator? If it's just a case of attaching to the cables and making a negative, might pluck up the courage :~)
Rob.
Yes. I've fitted both the Intelligent and alternator SCR myself - that's why I recommend you go for the intelligent one as it is much easier to fit - less messing around.
All you are doing is joining the 2 positive terminals of the batteries together with one wire and then cutting it to put the SCR in the middle. The idea is that the SCR will only allow current to flow one way when the engine is running to charge the battery. When the engine isn't running then it isolates the leisure battery from the van's battery. You join the negative of each battery together through the van's body. This is why you need another wire to the body from your leisure battery's negative post.
All you do is 'bolt' a supply wire to the positive battery terminal of your van and run it to the input on the SCR. You get connection instructions with the SCR and the details are also on the back of the unit. You need to cut the cable reasonably close to the battery terminal an insert an inline fuse holder with a 15 amp fuse. The cable I have used runs from the battery under the van and attached to the wiring harness that supplies power to all the rear van lights. I drilled a small hole in the floor of the van and ran the wire through into the back where I found a convenient place to fix the SCR where it wouldn't get damaged or wet. It was also quite close to where I fitted the battery. Fix this wire to the input of the split charge relay. From the SCR run another wire to the positive battery terminal of your leisure battery. Again put a fuse holder with a 15 amp fuse as close to the leisure battery as you can. The SCR will need another wire to earth (to a bolt on the body will do) and the negative battery terminal will also need another wire to earth.
Done.
Will take a couple of hours max.
The intelligent SCR is great in that it will give preferrence to charging the van's battery first. So it can take 10 -15 secs after the engine has been started to kick in.
Spruce
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From what I've read, there's two types. One that goes from battery to battery. The other from alternator to battery. I'm going to steer clear of the alternator because knowing me I'll turn my flow controller on and my engine will start and I'll turn the key and my pumps will come on.
;D
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Spruce,
Have you fitted the split relay yourself, I've literally just been looking at the ones you posted?
I need to sort mine, but a little apprehensive, thought it had to go from the alternator? If it's just a case of attaching to the cables and making a negative, might pluck up the courage :~)
Rob.
Yes. I've fitted both the Intelligent and alternator SCR myself - that's why I recommend you go for the intelligent one as it is much easier to fit - less messing around.
All you are doing is joining the 2 positive terminals of the batteries together with one wire and then cutting it to put the SCR in the middle. The idea is that the SCR will only allow current to flow one way when the engine is running to charge the battery. When the engine isn't running then it isolates the leisure battery from the van's battery. You join the negative of each battery together through the van's body. This is why you need another wire to the body from your leisure battery's negative post.
All you do is 'bolt' a supply wire to the positive battery terminal of your van and run it to the input on the SCR. You get connection instructions with the SCR and the details are also on the back of the unit. You need to cut the cable reasonably close to the battery terminal an insert an inline fuse holder with a 15 amp fuse. The cable I have used runs from the battery under the van and attached to the wiring harness that supplies power to all the rear van lights. I drilled a small hole in the floor of the van and ran the wire through into the back where I found a convenient place to fix the SCR where it wouldn't get damaged or wet. It was also quite close to where I fitted the battery. Fix this wire to the input of the split charge relay. From the SCR run another wire to the positive battery terminal of your leisure battery. Again put a fuse holder with a 15 amp fuse as close to the leisure battery as you can. The SCR will need another wire to earth (to a bolt on the body will do) and the negative battery terminal will also need another wire to earth.
Done.
Will take a couple of hours max.
The intelligent SCR is great in that it will give preferrence to charging the van's battery first. So it can take 10 -15 secs after the engine has been started to kick in.
Spruce
Thanks Spruce, really helpful, Appreciate the info.
Rob.
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Spruce. If we good give likes on this forum you would have 2 off this thread
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Spruce. If we good give likes on this forum you would have 2 off this thread
Thanks - its a pleasure to be able to help. Sometimes these things seem more daunting than they are. :)
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I've just ordered 2 with next day delivery, £42 all in. 1/2 he price of a flow controller with charging and 1/4 of the price quoted for a auto electrician.
Happy days
Rob.
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Thank you Spruce the information you have given is spot on.
To answer the question on Low Battery cut off the New analogue will shut down at 10.5V
The current digital will shut down at 11V
We are in the process of upgrading the digital controller and once released this will also have a low battery shut down of 10.5V
To tell the difference on the back of the box it will be marked V9 ( Shut down at 11V)
V11 (shut down at 10.5)
The issue of using a vehicle battery to run your WFP is that it is not designed for sustained use but for short sharp periods of load EG when you start the car. Once the engine is running the alternator is recharging the battery almost immediately.
So when starting the engine or 1st switching on a pump you will see a voltage drop as the battery comes under load.
other reasons for the Volt drop are cable and connectors always try to ensure the cable is a short as possible and all connectors are in good condition replace any damaged or rusting connectors.
Spruce has a well thought out and very efficient system and fitting the split relays to charge a leisure battery is a good idea
Remember as Spruce has said the amount of charge going back into the leisure battery will depend on how long the alternator is running.
In general run your WFP of a separate battery to the vehicle battery
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Thank you Ian. My next investment will be a new deep cycle battery and split relay charger.
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Thank you Ian. My next investment will be a new deep cycle battery and split relay charger.
And don't forget an intelligent battery charger as well. ;)
Today the two of us headed out of town on a contract clean we do every 6 weeks. We also include a number of domestic customers we have acquired over the years into this days work.
Between the 2 of us we used about 550 lites of water and ran both pumps from my 110 amp leisure battery for most of that. My son used his backpack for the backs of a couple of his houses on the way back home. I estimate that we spent about 5 to 6 'pumping' hours on the glass in total.
We travelled 68 miles, but the first 9 don't count as the leisure battery was fully charged when we left home. On getting home I put the leisure back on charge and it has just now come up fully charged after nearly 3 hours.
So the 59 miles we travelled help to replenish some of our battery usage but not all.
Both pumps running together were drawing around 7 amps and when the engine was running between jobs it was recharging at about the same amperage.
Now another interesting fact about alternators. It doesn't matter whether the engine is idling at trafic lights or 'reving' down the motorway at 2500 RPM - the alternator still delivers the maximum charge the leisure battery will accept. This means that if you take your time getting to your next customer you will save fuel and your leisure battery will receive a longer charge.
Spruce