Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Sean Rimmer on December 25, 2003, 09:45:21 pm
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Do you sell the item in question ??? and what is the difference in price for a bag ??? Do you know its xmas day , you should be with your loved ones 8)
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You should be with them every day why only one day! :-/
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Hi Dom,
What size tank will fit in a Escort 55 van ??? And how long would the water in this last ???
Steve
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dom
Why use colour change resin?
Are you suggesting that the companies that supply colour change resin are not bona-fide water treatment specialists? ???
or shall i translate that from the dom dictionary its crap and its not on our systems we sell!!
have a guiness its christmas!!!!! 8)
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Dominatrix - Is that another part of the Brodex service portfolio ?!?!?
On this occasion Dom I must agree with you, the most efficient way of testing the output of any pure water system is by using a TDS meter.
At Pure 2O we too use standard MB 400 virgin resin in our industry standard bottle change systems and wouldn't suggest using anything different.
A TDS reading gives the user "peace of mind", as does crash testing !
Finally, I'd like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a happy xmas ( I know it's a bit late ! ) and a prosperous new year.
Cheers, back to the vodka ! ;D
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Thanks Dom,
I will have to look into this in more detail ::) Does anyone on the forum use a 300ltr tank in an Escort 55 van ???
Steve
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Steve
I have a 300 litre tank Fitted in a ford courier van
been using it for 6 months ;D
Only once had to go home to refill
Do not use all the time still use the tools
Contact me for more info ???
Bryan
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Thanks Bryan,
I will contact you after the Christmas break and try and get a bit of information from you.
Steve
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Technical question for all pole operators to think about:
Some manufacturers use colourchange resin cartridges in their pure water machines to indicate the quality of water coming out of their machines. Bearing in mind colourchange resin costs considerably more than non-colourchange resin, yet does exactly the same job and is no better or no worse than non-colourchange resin at demineralising water ie. reducing TDS, why is colourchange resin used at all? To use an analogy, lets assume a TDS meter is a wrist watch. If someone asked you the time, would you walk outdoors and look for the position of the sun? and say, its about 3pm, or would you check your watch? Similarly, if someone asked you whether your pure water machine was producing good quality water?, would you look at the colourchange filter and say yeah, must be, its still got some life left because the filter has not entirely changed colour, or would you get your TDS meter out, and check it?
I guarantee if anyone rings up any bona-fide "Water Treatment Company" and asks "what is the correct, accurate, reliable, foolproof way of measuring TDS in water, in the field" and they dont say " a portable TDS Meter" , I'll eat my hat.
This begs the question, why use colourchange resin at all? Replies/comments not on a post card (Save the Trees Please :)) but on this forum
Dom
If someone didn't have a watch then they would not be able to look at the watch and tell the time. If you don’t have it you cannot use it.
It may only cost £28.00 for a TDS meter, but some people just want a cheap DI cartridge to mess around with pure water, and the colour change resin is the cheapest way to do that. Granted most people will go on and want a bigger system for purifying their water, and will end up with a meter of some sort, but until then the colour change resin is the cheapest way to go.
BTW[/u] a dual TDS meter comes as standard on all my small RO systems, as does a colour change DI resin cartridge. Sometimes you do not realise it is getting so late because you have not checked your watch for a while, you see the position of the sun, this prompts you to look at your watch, and as you thought it is time you were doing what you had to do. Same as colour change resin it is just another visual aid to assure you that you are still producing pure water.
Peter
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Hopefully this impartial advice helps point people in the right direction and remember, BRODEX sell everything, so our advice is not product driven, just technically and economically correct.
Do you sell colour change de-min resin?
Mike
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Peter F
It seems that some suppliers of the pole equipment discussed on this forum just cant help themselves and on the guise of providing technical information they have to mention a feature and benefit of a particular system they sell (See Peter F above/Anything OTT post etc etc) Fellas, this transparently negates your impartiality and your technical advice is tainted, so the good and the bad just get painted with the same brush and end up looking the same colour-do not underestimate the intelligence of the users of this forum and their ability to make informed decisions! It is patronising and will ultimately turn them off as prospective customers.
You should know all about that
Regardless of blatant product placement by Peter F, the fact that colourchange resin costs 2-3 times that of standard resin, clearly indicates which way to go if you want to save money and use pure water. If you want to experiment with pure water "messing about" as Peter calls it, the cheapest way is to buy a few gallons off a pole operator already established in your area. Talk to them nicely and I'm sure they will accomodate you at a much better rate than the local chemist and a lot cheaper than buying expensive colour change cartridges that you will end up throwing in the bin, because they are disposable!
Mines are refillable, and the customer gets the choice of colour change or non-colour change replacement resin.
What if there is not a pole operator in your area, or you don’t get on with them if they are?? Do you tell them Dom said you were to get it?
Refillable cartridges are available, colourchange and standard, you'll have to root them out, but they are without doubt the cheapest way to produce low volumes of pure water.
So now you have changed your mind?
Hopefully this impartial advice helps point people in the right direction and remember, BRODEX sell everything, so our advice is not product driven, just technically and economically correct.
Yes and a pig just flew by my window.
Peter
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Peterf
Do you crash test your products ;D 8)
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Could i fit a 650 litre sytem in a Citroen Dispatch van?
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Dom,
Why can't you discuss crash testing ?
You're surely not being a chicken, sorry i mean turkey are you ?! ;)
...or is it because you simply don't do crash testing, so can't compete effectively in this area ?
Straight answers only please !
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Peterf
Do you crash test your products ;D 8)
Sorry Majestic, I thought I had answered this.
No but I would like to. I have not been in the business long, although I have been selling trolley systems for a couple of years, I only sold my first van system less than a year ago, OTT were selling systems for many years before they got round to crash test their systems.
There was a meeting last month on water fed pole safety issues, I think hosted by the FED, but unfortunately I didn't know anything about it until it was past, seemingly there was less than half the system manufacturers in attendance. I would have been there had I been invited, I am all for participating in any of these events.
Peter
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Why use colour change resin? This was the original question posed by Sean.
For the first three years the Reach & Wash system used regular MB400 in regular column cyclinders, each system was sold with a TDS meter. Generally we never hear from a customer unless they have a problem, usually the kind of problems we heard of in those days was when a customer would ring up and complain that their system was leaving spots on their customers windows. Our first question was; what is your TDS reading? Common answers where, d'know, lost the TDS meter, d'know the TDS meter is not working, d'know what is TDS?
Despite the training and despite issuing an instruction manual, window cleaners in general just want to get on with their work and pay little attention to maintenance of their machine. So we'd send them a new TDS meter in order to establish if the problem was down to water quality or some other factor. Meter reading comes back high, so we send out new filters and bag of MB400. All very well, but what has happened?
The customer was unable to use the machine with confidence while all this got sorted out, and once it was had to go back over some of his work in order to satisfy his customers who had complained. This situation does little for the reputation of the window cleaner nor the reputation of our Reach & Wash systems.
The solution was to make it a no brainer so we use colour change resin in a clear filter cartridge of our own design and manufacture (Doesn't a company that manufactures its own filters that have been independently tested by the Water Research Council qualify as a water treatment company?). Now customers can see at a glance if their water quality is OK. This leads to a higher quality window cleaning service from Reach & Wash users than from users of other systems. In turn we get less complaints about water quality which means that our customers get less complaints about the quality of their window cleaning service. These days, on the rare occassion that a customer does ring our first question is; what colour is the colour change filter? if its not blue then the problem is very quick to resolve and the customer has less down time, he also knows how to look out for the same problem in the future.
In window cleaning time is money not the cost of one type of resin over another. TDS meters go out of calibration, get lost, broken, stolen, dropped into buckets of water. Colour change is quick, simple, delivers and causes less down time, and because of this works out to be much, much cheaper. If the old way was any good, then we'd still be doing it would'nt we?
Dom, we're IONIC SYSTEMS LTD not OTT any more!
regards
Reuben
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All Pole Users
Re. Crash Testing...Please refer to the latest press release from the NFMWGC...pure 20/OTT, little tinkers just mischief making...! Poor Peters not up to speed yet, been left in the dark I'm afraid.
Dom
Sean,
What do you mean... "little tinkers just mischief making...!" ?
Regards
Reuben
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Sean,
I'd like to clarify that Ionic's Linear colour change filters are in fact refillable. We encourage customers to return spent filters in return for a small refund, because we control the refill process we can ensure that the spent resin is disposed of in an environmentally friendly way and in complience with legislation. This protects our customers from the risk of prosecution that they may face if they dispose of spent resin themselves in an in appropriate way.
We do not encourage the dumping of spent resin that may arrise as a result of customers changing resin themselves.
By making our filter systems easier to use by the inclusion of a colour change DI filter we are not insulting the inteligence of those purchase them. In fact its intelligent window cleaners who choose them! For those who understand window cleaning as well as they understand chemistry, its not a cost issue, at £50 upwards per hour its downtime thats best avoided.
regards
Reuben
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Sean,
The refund is more than £2, and we do not suggest that spent filters should be sent back to us.
You are wrong about the re-fill ability of our filters.
You are wrong about the refund value.
You are wrong about the means of return.
You are wrong about the meaning of the NFMWGC's press release.
You are wrong about the "blank faces" at the meeting that took place at Summerfield House on 3rd Dec 2003.
You are wrong about the validity of our product testing.
regards
Reuben
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Sean,
The refund is more than £2, and we do not suggest that spent filters should be sent back to us.
You are wrong about the re-fill ability of our filters.
You are wrong about the refund value.
You are wrong about the means of return.
You are wrong about the meaning of the NFMWGC's press release.
You are wrong about the "blank faces" at the meeting that took place at Summerfield House on 3rd Dec 2003.
You are wrong about the validity of our product testing.
regards
Reuben
Looks like poor Sean cannot get anything right.
Peter
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Reuben,
Did OTT not do a crash test , ??? 8)
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Yes,
OTT did undertake a crash test program at Thatcham to FMVSS-208 standard.
Regards
Reuben
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Reuben,
Just had a look on your web site , saw the saftey video about crash testing 8)
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If colour change resin is more expensive than normal resin, couldn't you have just a small (say 3 inch) section with the colour change resin, seperate from the ordinary resin to use as an 'indicator'?
then when the coloured resin changed, you would know to replace all of it?
Or am I missing something obvious?
By the way, does anyone know where its possible to get the two types of resin seperately? (not "mixed bed"?)
Silly
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This is great! :D
I haven`t a clue what you`re on about ???
But it`s great ;D
Gerry.
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I love this thread, i check it every day always brings a smile to my face ;)
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this should be on tv ,kilroy,trisha etc ,springer.this makes good reading,and long may it carry on.im learning alot about these systems,just in time for when i take delivery on one.im just keepin it simple .and face the facts when i start using
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God, I turn my back and what's going on on here????
We do waterfed work 5 days a week. I find the colour change cartridges (and also the cartridge filters) much easier to use than storing bags of resin, messy filling and emptying and wondering what to do with the waste. (don't put it down the drain!)
This is all downtime, even it's it's your own spare time which could be spent doing something more enjoyable. I just return them to the supplier when I'm up there. Simple is best and the cost is not that much extra over the period of filter changes.
The meeting on Dec 3rd was very productive and should be the start of something positive for the industry.
Dom, whatever happened to the old adage of a professional not slating the competition?
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you better ask alex ferguson, or asda maybe safeway or honda, or for that matter any company, competion is good for all of us, mmmmm maybe set up another window cleaning federation......... is that possible
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Dom,
I guess I'm changing cartridges every 2 months or so, the last one has gone 3 months, probably due to better psi in the winter months, I think.
For me it's a bit like when we did office cleaning, we started off buying large bottles and manually decanting down to smaller containers. Once established, we just bought the smaller containers ready to use in the first place and costed them in to the job for ease of use.
Interesting your point on non-hazardous waste, I know you come from a water purification background. I'm not sure I feel comfortable putting them out with the trash or taking them down the tip, is this what you recommend your users do? Is there any documentation to back this up?
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Sean,
1)I use your name out of professional courtesy.
2)Our filters are not disposable.
3)We do not suggest that customers post their spent filters back to us because there are more economical ways for them to be returned. And we do not suggest that they be placed in the bin.
4)We do not recommend the dumping of spent resin because said spent resin contains high levels of otherwise trace elements that are harmful to the environment if not disposed of properly.
5)We used to use the same DI methodology that you currently use, if it was the best solution for this particular application then we’d still be doing it!
6)Our customers like the colour change principle, that’s why they choose it.
7)Did anyone receive Sean’s bottle of Scotch? I don’t hold out much hope for Lunch at the Savoy so I won’t bother to educate you about the dumping of commercial waste in dustbins!
Regards
Reuben
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Any Readers
I refer the above gentleman to the press release from the NFMWGC;
if you want to see a copy of the press release from the official trade organisation that represents your interests, regarding the validity of "paid for" crash testing and its relative importance when selecting which manufacturer to deal with, please contact the NFMWGC direct or ask the above gentleman to post it verbatum on this site, to save you time. If any helpful readers want to do the same....
Again, for the record and hopefully the last time.... as mentioned on several ocassions, I can not discuss crash testing on this forum.
Dom
Sean, only because you asked;
The Fed’s press release refers to a number of legal documents, principally regulation 100 of the Road Vehicle (construction & Use) Regulations. It states; Loads must be secured so as not to cause a DANGER to persons in, on or outside of the vehicle.
It is true that no-where in the legislation does it specifically say that manufacturers of vehicle mounted water treatment systems must carry out crash testing in order to prove compliance with the above legislation. However, by carrying out such a test a manufacturer can demonstrate to their customers that their equipment does not pose a Danger to themselves or their employees in the even of even a minor accident at just 30mph, or even heavy braking, and so does comply with regulation 100.
Although the Road Traffic Act does not currently say that crash testing is mandatory, other legislation does provide for the need for manufacturers to undertake appropriate product testing. At Ionic Systems we believe that Crash Testing is appropriate for our products and even if it were not then we believe that we have a moral obligation to ensure the safety of our customers.
You suggested that I answer your question and I have, if you believe that the Federation’s press release means that your company does not have to undertake crash testing. Please can you answer my earlier question that was;
If not by crash testing how should a manufacturer of vehicle mounted water tanks demonstrate that his equipment is safe and complies with regulation 100 above?
Regards
Reuben
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My view point as an end user.
If I was choosing between two similar Pure Water systems and one had been crash tested by a recognised body in the motor industry, the tested system would definitely get my money, as I would view this as an additional benefit that would give me piece of mind with my employees. Leglislation does not currently exist to say that it's necessary, but that's not to say that it won't in the future.
Regardless of the right way or wrong way as things stand at present, it shows the manufacurer is concerned with the safety of it's customers and I think IONIC SYSTEMS should be applauded for making the first move at considerable investment cost to them. If I was a Competitor I would seek to get in on this as well. From a Sales point of view it may seem to give them an unfair advantage in the marketplace but aren't Unique Selling Points what sales are all about?
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Dom,
Crash Testing was mentioned in Reubens reply immediately previous to mine and also by you yesteday to which Reuben was replying. I understand the restrictions on you both, I was giving my opinion to other readers as an end user.
Your point about the colour change refills being Trade Waste, if the resin isn't in your opinion, why is the whole unit? Because of the plastic cannister? Is plastic now Trade Waste?
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Dom,
I am concerned about environmental issues and would like your answer. As a pole user can you tell me, if resin isn't Trade Waste, why are the plastic cannisters?
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Any Readers
I refer the above gentleman to the press release from the NFMWGC;
if you want to see a copy of the press release from the official trade organisation that represents your interests, regarding the validity of "paid for" crash testing and its relative importance when selecting which manufacturer to deal with, please contact the NFMWGC direct or ask the above gentleman to post it verbatum on this site, to save you time. If any helpful readers want to do the same....
Again, for the record and hopefully the last time.... as mentioned on several ocassions, I can not discuss crash testing on this forum.
Dom
Sean,
If you keep on bringing up the subject and ask for comment then I will oblige you. In any event I did not ask you to comment about crash testing, I asked for your comment about any alternative that you may suggest.
Regarding waste disposal you said; "With regard to your point of what to do with the waste resin, it is inert, non-hazardous petroleum based resin. As a non hazardous waste, it is classed as low volume general refuse, bin as normal".
You're the guy that says put it in the bin. We're the guys that did speak to the Environmental Health Officer which is why we encourage our customers to return spent resin filters so that we can dispose of their trade waste properly. Yes this does cost money, but by doing it the way we do we can limit the potential of a huge fine if you're caught dumping trade waste in the bin as you suggest!
What was it you said "get real".
regards
Reuben
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"MartinGiven your and my position within the industry, may I recommend we continue our dialogue outside of this forum where vested interests best lie?
Dom"
Perhaps you can explain what you mean by this comment. Are you suggesting that your company has vested interests in the NFMWGC?
regards
Reuben
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Dom,
It was a simple question, I am sure other readers are just as interested in the answer as I am.
As you have not answered my question I am now assuming there is no difference between resin in a plastic cannister or on its own, unless you can show me to the contrary.
This is something I am concerned about. Why shouldn't that be on this forum?
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I think what it means is, I have messed up again and I will not answer any more questions on that subject.
Peter
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Sean,
There is a single answer and that is that spent resin is trade waste. Our system for refilling filters ensures that spent resin can be disposed of properly. Please can you give"All Pole Users" some good advise that falls within the law regarding how they should dispose of spent resin/trade waste when they replace the resin themselves. This advise may save some pole users from the risk of prosecution.
regards
Reuben
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Dom,
Take your filters for independent testing at the Water Research Council and you'll find you get a more "real" result.
PS. why not post a picture of your laboratory?
Regards
Reuben
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after all that what, are the users views on the brodex systems and ionic systems ?
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after all that what, are the users views on the brodex systems and ionic systems ?
I think I would leave to the lawsuits are over :o
We've heard that before.............
I don't think I would buy a Brodex system off Dave Brent, if it went wrong, he'd direct me to the nearest Greenpeace or WWF complaints counter. He'd make a good politician though, he's not answered a straight question yet. ::)
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Talking of their systems has any 1 got or tried the Thermal Pure system from ionic yet?
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a local pole company from dorset told me that his Thermal Pure system from ionic caught FIRE so you wont get me buying one
andy
dorset
fed member
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Dom,
Why cant you talk about it?
If it is for legal reasons then that would suggest to me that it is not true?
I was thinking about having a hot water on mine when i get a system.
How do you heat the water on your systems is it Diesel like ott ?
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I can talk about it as i know the bloke how it happen to
Because it happen, it is a FACT.
ANDY
DORSET
FED MEMBER
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Dom,
I have an interest in the industry because i am looking to get a truckmount or a trailer in the spring. I have a limited budget and have learnt a bit on the forum. The banter between you and ott was quite amusing at times but is waring a little thin, i am sorry if i am little sceptical of sales people thats just me. I have bought a residential pole off ott last year to go with a DI bottle i got from tucker, i dont know the guys from ott i met an irish guy when i visited them he was pretty helpful.
When i am ready to buy i will gather all literature and prices maybe i will play you off against ott to get a good deal hey :D
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[quote author=Dom Matrix aka BRODEX
if you *art in a lift with an OTT rep, they threaten to sue....!
:-X
andy
dorset
fed member
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pure_genius
take your time its a lot to take in and lots of money for us window cleaners to pay out, i spend months working it all out, get all the free demos they all give out.
andy
dorset
fed member
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Andy,
Thanks for the advice what type of system do you have?
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Pole man,
In response to you wanting to know who I am my name is Kevin James I live in a little place called Efailwen in West Wales I work 30 hours a week as my main job.
I do Window cleaning in my spare time and weekends to boost my income from my main job. I have been using at pole system to try and quicken the time on houses so I can take on more work in the small time frame I have.
I have found I don’t always have a water supply on site to run my trolley system so hence why my interest in truck mounts and trailer systems.
Eventually I would like to be able to go full time on the windows but with family commitments I cannot afford to give up my job yet.
It has been good hearing how others window cleaners have built there rounds, you say you have been window cleaning 20 years you must have built up a good business and enjoying a good living from this.
Thanks
Kevin
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Pole man,
I asked you what pole system you had, i wait your reply
Kevin