Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Marc Jones on June 01, 2010, 10:34:59 pm
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Hi,
I'm hoping to receive some well needed wisdom and experience from you guys. I've been window cleaning for 23 years without major incident...but, it had to happen!
I was asked to undertake a builders clean on a large property (interior/exterior). Scratched a window, immediately informed the client, reassured him of my cover. He then claimed that every window in the house was scratched. My insurance sent out an asessor, he found that I wasn't covered under an exclusion (not covered for the item you are working on) and now the client's home insurance company are after me for £20,000!!
I just about earn that amount of money in a year (I've always tried to put my family first) and have no idea what to do. I've been given no evidence of negligence, not given a chance to inspect the alleged damage and my insurance company have washed their hands of me.
The equipment I used on the clean is the standard trim ten. I've used this on large scale commercial cleans and domestic with no complaints over my long career and cannot begin to understand the alleged damage.
Please, is there anyone out there with a previous experience that might help to guide me through the sleepless nights?
Many thanks and appreciation if you can help.
Marc
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First thing they have to prove is that it's you who has scratched the glass. Umpteen people have handled and worked with it before it came to you for cleaning. It was probaboly scratched before long before you came on the scene. Challenge them to prove it was you.
They are trying it on. There is no proof and no court will believe it.
In future get your client to sign a disclaimer. Any damage resulting in your efforts to remove cement, plaster, paint etc is down to them, not you.
All new builds suffer damage at the hands of rogue 'craftsmen', you've just given the builder a scapegoat, normally they would have to do the repairs at their own expense.
Stick to your guns - you didn't scratch the glass. Tell them to prove you did. You won't get paid for your work, but at least you won't be paying them any 20 grand.
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I am sorry to hear the bad news. I know you immediately told the client about the scratch, so he has blamed all scratches on you? That seems really weird.... What technique did you use? ie is it an impossibility for you to scratch the windows?
It sounds like a set up?
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Look up the term "Fabrication debris" on the internet and you will get an idea as to whether it is the problem. If the glass is heat treated this is a major problem. I have some info somewhere I could send you. If it is FD then while you still caused it the problem rests with the manufacturer and builder.
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Have a look at this:Fabricating Debris (http://sunshine-cleaning.net/Documents/fabricatingdebris.pdf)
This is handy but needs to be done BEFORE the clean:
Cleaner to Builder (http://sunshine-cleaning.net/Documents/CleanerToBuilder.pdf)
Plus this:Builder to suplier (http://sunshine-cleaning.net/Documents/BuilderToSupplier.pdf)
I guess any insurance that includes scratched glass cover would require these type of docs.
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Found this:
Sorry pics not coming up.
GLASS QUALITY
Though window protection and window cleaner skill are vital to ensuring a quality finished product, no amount of these can overcome low-quality windows. In recent years, low-quality tempered glass has become a major source of scratched glass. Window manufacturers ultimately make the decision on the quality of the glass they install in their windows, and should therefore conduct constant quality inspections to insure only quality, blemish-free tempered glass is being used.
What is tempered glass (commonly known as heat treated glass)?
Tempered glass is glass specifically designed for use in areas with a high risk of contact and breakage. When broken, tempered glass breaks into very small pieces, making it safer than annealed glass. It is 4-5 times stronger than annealed glass, and can withstand more wind, heat, and impact before breaking.
Where is tempered glass used?
In residential applications, there are certain areas that require the use of tempered glass. The more common locations are listed below. For the specific requirements in your area, check your local building codes.
All doors (sliding-glass, French, and patio).
Side windows within 24 in. of an opening or door.
Stair landing windows within 4 ft. of the floor.
Bathroom windows, within 5 ft. of the floor.
All windows within 18 in. of the floor.
All tub and shower enclosures.
Facts about Tempered Glass
Tempered glass is no harder or softer than annealed (non-tempered) glass.
The entire glass pane is tempered from surface to surface and both sides are equal in hardness.
The exterior surfaces of tempered glass are in compression and the centre is in tension.
Surfaces of tempered glass are not changed as a result of the tempering process. Tempered glass is no more porous than annealed glass.
Every piece of tempered glass must have a permanent stamp or logo to signify it is tempered glass. However, there are no standards which regulate which surface of the glass is to receive the stamp or where the stamp is to be placed on the surface. Tempering stamps can face in or out on an insulated glass unit.
There is no standard or regulation requiring tempered glass to be washed or clean prior to tempering.
Myths about Tempered Glass
Tempered glass scratches easier than non-tempered glass.
Tempered glass surfaces are different than annealed glass surfaces.
Tempered glass stamp or logo is located in the same location on all windows.
Tempered glass is only tempered on one side.
Fabricating Procedure for Tempered Glass
The fabrication of tempered glass can be broken up into 4 major steps: sizing, edging, washing, and tempering. The details of each step are listed below.
Sizing the glass
The first step in the process of manufacturing tempered glass is to cut a piece of annealed glass to the desired size. The sizing of the glass must take place before the tempering process because attempted cutting of tempered glass with result in breakage.
Edging the glass
Once the sample is cut to the desired size, it is necessary to seam the edges of the glass. This is normally done with a diamond wheel grinder or sander, and results in a piece of glass with squared off and smooth edges.
Washing the glass
The sizing and edging work done in the previous steps generates fabricating debris which is deposited over the entire surface of the glass. For this reason, all glass should be washed prior to entering the tempering furnace. If this debris is not completely washed off prior to the glass entering the tempering furnace, the remaining debris will be fused to the glass, resulting in a surface defect. This is by far the major cause of scratching on defetive tempered glass.
Tempering the glass
With the piece of glass sized, ground, and washed clean, it is ready for the actual tempering procedure. In this step, the glass is heated in a tempering furnace to approximately 1200°F. The glass is then removed from the furnace and immediately quenched with cold air, reducing the temperature of the glass to 400-600°F. This quenching produces the temper.
Most common types of tempering furnaces
There are three basic types of tempering furnaces most commonly used in the fabrication of tempered glass. The first and oldest of the three types positions the glass vertically (held by metal tongs) as it moves through the furnace. The second and most common furnace style in use today has the glass positioned horizontally on ceramic rollers. The third style is a gas hearth style, which transports the glass in a horizontal position on a bed of gas (at a 5° slope) and moves through the furnace with edge rollers.
Why does some tempered glass scratch?
The majority of the scratches found on tempered glass result from poor glass quality. The surface quality of tempered glass will have a direct effect on the possibility of scratching the glass during cleaning. Low-quality tempered glass has fabricating debris fused to its surface, which at the time of cleaning has a very high likelihood of being dislodged and dragged across the glass surface, resulting in scratching.
Notice in the following photo how each of the scratches has a clear point of origin. This point is the location where a glass particle was fused to the surface during the tempering process. This particle should have been washed from the glass before it was sent into the tempering furnace, but inadequate washing procedures allowed it to remain on the glass.

Defective tempered glass
The following photos are of an isolated defect on a tempered glass sample. The sample was a factory-direct piece of glass, and was not subject to a construction environment. The after photo shows the scratch that resulted from passing a new razor blade over the glass surface. Notice how the point of origin (and therefore the cause) of the scratch is the original surface defect. The black lines on the photos are felt pen markings used to identify the location of the defect.

Single glass defect, before cleaning
 
Resulting scratch from glass defect, after cleaning
The following photos show a new razor blade before and after it was passed over the surface of a piece of defective tempered glass. Notice the large amounts of fabricating debris present in the after photos.

New razor blade
 
New razor blade with fabricating debris from defective tempered glass surface

Cutting edge of new razor blade
 
Cutting edge of razor blade with fabricating debris taken from a defective tempered glass surface
The following photos are magnified images of the fabricating debris from the razor blade in the previous photos.

Isolated fabricating debris taken from a defective tempered glass surface  
Isolated fabricating debris taken from a defective tempered glass surface
Where does the fabricating debris come from?
Now that it's clear why some tempered glass scratches, the next question is "Where does the fabricating debris come from?" To answer this question, we need to look back at how the tempered glass is made. The third step in the process was to wash the glass after it had been sized and ground, but not all glass manufacturers do an adequate job at this step. Most problems in this area are related to the lack of maintenance to the washer and tempering furnace. If the glass washer and tempering furnace are not properly maintained, fabricating debris will build, making them less effective in cleaning and tempering the glass. Due to this, the glass will exit the washer with much of the fabricating debris still present as the glass is sent into the tempering furnace. Once the glass is inside the furnace, the debris will begin to liquefy and fuse itself to the roller side surface of the glass and to the furnace rollers. It is this fabricating debris that causes the poor quality surface and the scratching on defective tempered glass. When a window cleaner removes construction debris from the glass surface, they also remove these defects, which scratch the glass as they're moved across the glass surface.
Over time, the tempering furnace will also become contaminated with fabricating debris and must be serviced to clean the furnace rollers. To date, washing glass prior to tempering is not required or enforced by any regulation or standard.
Identifying and Tracking Defective Tempered Glass
Due to the severity of scratches related to defective tempered glass it is vital that one be able to identify a batch of defective tempered glass as quickly as possible. There are a few major signs that identify low-quality tempered glass. The first is that scratches related to defective tempering are always widespread on the glass surface, usually covering the entire pane. The second is that scratching will only occur on the side of the tempered glass that was in contact with the rollers in the tempering furnace. The side facing up in the tempering furnace is usually defect free, and will not scratch when cleaned with the same window cleaning tools and techniques.
Given the location of the furnace roller relative to the glass sample is so important, it is obvious that a method of determining which side was the roller side is vital. The key to this determination is the tempering stamp. Each tempered glass manufacturer has their own tempering stamp that they put on their glass samples (see photo of tempering stamp to the left). By identifying the location of the tempering stamp, the roller side of the glass can be determined. The important part in this determination is the type of tempering stamp.
There are two major types of stamps used: sand blasted and porcelain. A sand blasted stamp is located on the roller side of the glass and will identify the potentially defective surface. A porcelain stamp is located on the side opposite the rollers and will identify the quality surface.
This is a good time to point out that tempered glass is not always installed in the proper location in a building. Sometimes, with several windows being the same size, they are mistakenly installed in the wrong location. A check for the tempering stamp is the best way to determine if the glass is truly tempered.
How to determine if the tempering stamp is sandblasted or porcelain
As shown above, the tempering stamp holds the answer to which side is the potentially defective side of the glass. However, identifying the stamp side is not enough. The type of stamp must also be determined. The best way to determine the type of stamp is by passing a razor blade over it. If the blade passes over the stamp without any drag it is a sand blasted stamp. Otherwise, the stamp is a porcelain stamp. Keep in mind that some tempering stamps are applied in a mirror image to the surface, and can only be read through the glass, not from the surface on which they are applied.
IG (Insulated Glass) Units
The popularity of IG units has complicated the issues with defective glass as two of the surfaces are always hidden from contact. This often gives the false appearance that the tempering defects are not a consistent problem, as the defective surface is inside the IG unit.
Before discussing the details of IG units further, let's cover the standard numbering convention used for IG unit surfaces. The surfaces of IG units are numbered 1 through 4. Surface #1 is the surface facing the exterior of the building. Surfaces #2 and #3 are located inside the IG unit. Surface #4 is the surface facing the interior of the building.
Most insulated glass fabricators do not usually track stamps on tempered glass, unless requested for a specific reason. If an application required only high-quality tempered glass, tracking the stamp might then be required. Listed below are some examples of applications that require only defect-free glass, both tempered and annealed.
Mirrors - The silvering process will show any debris on the surface.
Laminated glass - The lamination will show any debris between the glass layers.
Low-E coatings - The coating will show any debris on the surface.
In recent years, Low-E coatings have become a very popular means of further insulating a building (usually the coatings are applied to surface #2 in hot areas and surface #3 in cold areas). In these applications, any surface that could contain defects should be used only as surface #1 or #4. The unfortunate side effect of this is that it forces the potentially defective glass surface to be exposed to the elements, and subjects the window cleaner to the risk of scratching the defective surface during normal construction window cleaning. 
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Marc
So sorry to hear your news, I can imagine it must be a very worrying time. These cases happen quite regularly with new builds and we have heard from many window cleaners who have been accused of scratching glass and find it hard to prove otherwise. Often the glass has been scratched during storage due to the way the glass has been stacked.
On the positive side I might be able to help. We have a contact who is a specialist in investigating the causes of scratched glass and rectifying scratches. He can tell what material caused a scratch and remove them. Your customer will have to give him access to the glass to do this. His number is 0800 612 8095 and his name is David Lawrence. Give him a try, it is worth a call. Good luck.
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Call me a sceptic but a first poster, only registered yesterday, comes up with a major issue £20k problem. then another first poster, registered the day before comes up with a solution!!
Are you trying to get around the advertising??
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Call me a sceptic but a first poster, only registered yesterday, comes up with a major issue £20k problem. then another first poster, registered the day before comes up with a solution!!
Are you trying to get around the advertising??
And after you did all that typing ::)
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Marc
So sorry to hear your news, I can imagine it must be a very worrying time. These cases happen quite regularly with new builds and we have heard from many window cleaners who have been accused of scratching glass and find it hard to prove otherwise. Often the glass has been scratched during storage due to the way the glass has been stacked.
On the positive side I might be able to help. We have a contact who is a specialist in investigating the causes of scratched glass and rectifying scratches. He can tell what material caused a scratch and remove them. Your customer will have to give him access to the glass to do this. His number is 0800 612 8095 and his name is David Lawrence. Give him a try, it is worth a call. Good luck.
Do you have anything to say Mr Insurance broker?
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I'm hoping to receive some well needed wisdom and experience from you guys. I've been window cleaning for 23 years without major incident...but, it had to happen!
I was asked to undertake a builders clean on a large property (interior/exterior). Scratched a window, immediately informed the client, reassured him of my cover. He then claimed that every window in the house was scratched. My insurance sent out an asessor, he found that I wasn't covered under an exclusion (not covered for the item you are working on) and now the client's home insurance company are after me for £20,000!!
1) IF YOU HAVE BEEN CLEANING FOR 23 YEARS WHY DO YOU NOT HAVE INSURANCE TO COVER THIS.
2) IF YOU SEE AT THE TIME THE WINDOW YOU WAS WORKING ON WAS SCRATCHED WHY NOT LOOK AT THE REST BEFORE REPORTING IT?
3) I DONT BELIVE THIS FAIRYTALE STORY .
I assume you have PL Insurance cleanandshine, but have you got cover for the glass and building you are working on?
Did you also know if you are doing cladding/gutter cleaning your window cleaning insurance wont cover this. Therefore unless you have specifically requested cover for those servcies additionally you are effectively working without PL Insurance.
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For cryin out loud, this forum gets silly at times with peoples replies, so what if its a set up so what if its not, for me polished insurance has just given me some good advice with their reply in the fact that you can get someone who will try an fight your corner if you have a problem like this.
I used to have 2 mill insurance with a-plan until I realised it never covered me for the glass I was workin on or the fact I worked off ladders to clean gutters out an facias . I now have my insurance with alexandra swan who cover me for all this, I did try polished but they never got back to me.
Are we all adults on here who run businesss or kids snipin at each other?
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I'm telling my dad you said that! ;D
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Quite blatent advertising, but if it helps any window cleaner then it's no big deal. I wonder how many have a PLI policy that realy isn't worth the paper it's printed on ?
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Bit of a waste of my time finding the info and making it available on my website for a 'fictitious' shiner.
Plus, the point of PL not carrying liability for windows worked has been covered many times.
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Bit of a waste of my time finding the info and making it available on my website for a 'fictitious' shiner.
That would pee me off as well as you were trying to be helpfull
Plus, the point of PL not carrying liability for windows worked has been covered many times.
It has that but I'd be willing to bet that there are still many who have inadequit cover
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Gents
I am not sure what you are getting at. This is an honest offer of help to a member of your forum who I thought needed help and I have recently been contacted by David Lawrence to offer his services to our customers and I thought it was a perfect solution. I am a first poster yes because as a sponsor of the forum I respect the rules and would not post messages for the sake of it, but I honestly thought I was helping someone here.
I am not trying to advertise our services, I am offering him the number of a fella who can help him. When Marc Jones reads this he will verify this, I have never heard of the bloke before so Sunshine Cleaning (Stuart) and Murdie yes you are very sceptical.
I am sure Jason or one of the other moderators can check the IP addresses to confirm that we have nothing to do with the original post which seems to be what you are implying.
You can't do right for doing wrong sometimes.
Regards
Mark Farrimond
The Innocent One.
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For cryin out loud, this forum gets silly at times with peoples replies, so what if its a set up so what if its not, for me polished insurance has just given me some good advice with their reply in the fact that you can get someone who will try an fight your corner if you have a problem like this.
I used to have 2 mill insurance with a-plan until I realised it never covered me for the glass I was workin on or the fact I worked off ladders to clean gutters out an facias . I now have my insurance with alexandra swan who cover me for all this, I did try polished but they never got back to me.
Are we all adults on here who run businesss or kids snipin at each other?
Ste,
Sorry if we didnt get back to you. I apologise for that and assure you that this is not upto our usual standards. Please dont let it put you off asking us for a quote in the future.
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Pretty simple this one,
The client is obviously trying to turn you over so just deny all knowledge of scratched glass do not admitt to informing them of scratch glass then they will have to take you court and will have no evidence meaning no case.
Rob
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OK, sorry for the slur. I hope the info I found was useful.
Stuart :-[
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Whatever mate, I'm realy not bothered if it was or wasn't a plant or not. As I also stated if it helps a cleaner get the correct cover that they need then it's been a worth while post.
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Just as long as you know we wouldn't "plant" an advert, we have no need to when we have adverts at the foot of every page on this section. Now that is blatant advertising.
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Just as long as you know we wouldn't "plant" an advert, we have no need to when we have adverts at the foot of every page on this section. Now that is blatant advertising.
Ha!
Been on here 100s of times never seen that before
How much did you pay for that?
Seems like a waste, when all you really need is a free post on the forum.
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Form B,
It costs a few quid, I won't lie to you. But its working, slowly. We've only had it there for a month.
It all goes towards helping the forum owners and mods to keep the site going.
Can I say one more thing before I leave you all alone. If you ever need any advice at all on window cleaning insurance email us at quotes@polished-insurance.co.uk and we will happily help. We won't post on here unless we can add something useful. But that doesnt mean we can't help. You don't have to be a customer of ours either.
Thanks
Mark
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there realy is some muppets on this forum. ::) ::)
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hopefully you wont need his help in the future...
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iv seen it ;D
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i wasn't refering to Mark Farrimond, the post was aimed at those who put two and two together and got five!!
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there realy is some muppets on this forum. ::) ::)
I think what you mean to say is "There really ARE some muppets on this forum" you dont use 'is' and 'some' together.
::) ;D
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I just did! so there. :P
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If your calling me a muppet can I be Animal as he rocked 8)
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whats all this mark farriman having 2 listings on this one thread then . whose the real one....
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Hi Guys,
I have to say that I'm totally overwhelmed by your kind response to my situation (especially Sunshine Cleaning...Wow!) It seems that because of the recession, insurance companies are coming down hard in order to recover losses they incur-I think it's called subrogation.
I'll be in contact with the Insurance firms solicitors tomorrow with the research you've uncovered. Also I'm changing my insurance company-haven't claimed in 23 years-for a company who will provide adequate cover.
Again, many, many thanks. I'll be sleeping tonight.
Marc :)
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web site on a star is bump so who is this jones ??? ???
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Come on guys we not all asleep. THis is such a set up.
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I'm hoping to receive some well needed wisdom and experience from you guys. I've been window cleaning for 23 years without major incident...but, it had to happen!
I was asked to undertake a builders clean on a large property (interior/exterior). Scratched a window, immediately informed the client, reassured him of my cover. He then claimed that every window in the house was scratched. My insurance sent out an asessor, he found that I wasn't covered under an exclusion (not covered for the item you are working on) and now the client's home insurance company are after me for £20,000!!
1) IF YOU HAVE BEEN CLEANING FOR 23 YEARS WHY DO YOU NOT HAVE INSURANCE TO COVER THIS.
2) IF YOU SEE AT THE TIME THE WINDOW YOU WAS WORKING ON WAS SCRATCHED WHY NOT LOOK AT THE REST BEFORE REPORTING IT?
3) I DONT BELIVE THIS FAIRYTALE STORY .
I assume you have PL Insurance cleanandshine, but have you got cover for the glass and building you are working on?
Did you also know if you are doing cladding/gutter cleaning your window cleaning insurance wont cover this. Therefore unless you have specifically requested cover for those servcies additionally you are effectively working without PL Insurance.
That is true Elfords, I had to pay double the amount just to add the gutter cleaning etc and to have cover for the glass and guttering that I am working on.
most insurance companies have a clause that states the window you are working on ins't covered.
Matt
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Patient: Doc, "I've got a boil on my bum."
Doc: "Hmmmm, nasty that! You need a course of leeches."
Patient: "Thanks Doc, where can I get some?"
Doc: "Funnily enough my bro. runs the biggest leech farm in the country ... "
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> Sunshine "Here is some money." = is and some in the same sentence. (but you are right, it is incorrect in the example you quoted in your post above)
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LOL @ Gold
;D ;D ;D ;D
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LOL @ Gold
;D ;D ;D ;D
He's good isn't he! ;D
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O.k guys,
This is not some kind of set up. I'm a sole trader in South West Wales and currently have a rather large company of solicitors hunting me down. I don't have a web site, only use a trade name to advertise in the pages and in 23 years haven't claimed on public liability, trusted my brokers advice and recommendations, and therefore didn't examine the exclusions as closely as I should have.
As previously noted, I am extremely grateful for your advice (you won't believe the relief it has given me) but am perturbed by the "conspiracy theorists". This kind of treatment from insurance companies is pretty sly and I guess by sticking together we can help each other beat the system.
Hoping this leaves the lads doing the research feeling that their efforts were very much appreciated by one of their own
Marc
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I couldnt careless if this is a plant as it makes you think what really could happen to any of us at any time..... Ive just come back from a short break and my insurance run out Monday just gone, was going to renew it but have just sent a request to polished insurance for them to give me a quote as maybe my £65 renewel which sounds cheap isnt worth the paper its printed on....
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Chris,
I have just emailed you with a figure. Feel free to ask anything on here but I may have to disappear in a bit, have to pick the Mrs up from a works do, so please don't think I am being rude if I don't reply til morning.
Thanks
Mark
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I couldnt careless if this is a plant as it makes you think what really could happen to any of us at any time..... Ive just come back from a short break and my insurance run out Monday just gone, was going to renew it but have just sent a request to polished insurance for them to give me a quote as maybe my £65 renewel which sounds cheap isnt worth the paper its printed on....
so that is one sale from this setup post ::) ::)
2 + 2 = 4
some people take window cleaners for fools
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Hi Marc
Where are you based and do you have a company name ?
Dave
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Spencer
This is not a set up, I can assure you. I am even prepared to give you my IP address at work and the one I am using now at home. As I previously said, we advertise on here, across the whole window cleaning section and on the general cleaning boards and it costs quite a bit so we have no need to set up threads as you assume.
We don't think window cleaners are fools, we deal with over 2,000 of them and we know they aren't but I wish we could just prove this is not a set up.
Mark
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call me sceptical.
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You should all have an all risks insurance(like carpet cleaners have), not cheap but performs if something happens PL only cover items not worked on and people etc, when people tell me their paying 50-100 per year for 5000,000 i know their in trouble when something goes wrong, my insurance this year was 3000.00+ all risks with all the aspects of work itemised.
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Hi Dave,
I'm based in South West Wales in a town called Pembroke. I use "A-Star Clean" in advertising and appear in the pages. Feel free to call if you need to clear up any ambiguity.
Marc
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All the glass on even a massive house is not going to come to anything like £20K. A replacement sealed unit costs average £40 (if that) trade and about £100 fitted. Less if several units are being fitted.
First of all get to grips with the figures that are being quoted. Secondly if any insurance is worse than public liability insurance for backing out of things I don't know what it is. However, don't automatically assume that a first refusal is not just a tactic.
Thirdly, builders cleans are dangerous for this reason but point out you were called in because the builders had been negligent and got cement all over the glass so the damage had already been done before you got there.
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Hi Dave,
I'm based in South West Wales in a town called Pembroke. I use "A-Star Clean" in advertising and appear in the pages. Feel free to call if you need to clear up any ambiguity.
Marc
Marc
No need I thought it would help, to show that you were a genuine person.
Please dont be offended by the posts, its just that some suppliers have used every trick in the book, and some of our members are a bit wary of first time posters, especially when they are answered by a first time poster with the right answers.
I for one think you are genuine, I can call you though if you think it will help.
Dave