Window Cleaning Issues - Canvassing, pole systems, pricing, problems, etc.
www.findmeawindowcleaner.co.uk site is now workingPosted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 24 September 2003
I have just checked the site that was mentioned earlier in the week by Mike and it is now up and running 
Steve Lowe
click here to register http://www.findmeawindowcleaner.co.ukPosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 24 September 2003
I've just had a carrier pidgeon land on my roof with a message from Terry Burrows!
He tells me he has got worms, or his computer has, it wasn't too clear, anyway he can't be on line till Friday as it's at the cyber vet's.
Message is he has done 20 radio shows TODAY! promoting the http://www.findmeawindowcleaner.co.uk site for Anglian Windows, where customers will be able to find a window cleaner in any area and also vote for their favorite in a competition. There has been a lot of public interest already TV coverage to follow, and it will involve the National Federation of Master Window & General Cleaners.
Terry will be back to fill in the gaps on Friday, (all bar another disease) so GET ON THERE AND REGISTER NOW!!!Posted by Service_Champion (Service_Champion), 24 September 2003
I have been on the website but couldn't find where to register. Any ideas.
P.S. I think it is a very good idea and can only highlight the professionalism and quality service of the window cleaning trade.
Thanks.
Stewart.
Service Champions - Total Cleaning SolutionsPosted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 24 September 2003
Went to the site and came up as a double glazing firm Anglian home improvments is this the right site?
Cheers AlanPosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 24 September 2003
Errrr...., yes it's the right site. The link for 'Find me a Window Cleaner' is on the right on the home page halfway down. I registered on the temporary page the other day. Will investigate tomorrow.Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 24 September 2003
Cheers fed man done me right in them
Well done AlanPosted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 24 September 2003
How do you log on
AlanPosted by AMG (AMG), 24 September 2003
The link for the site is on the right in a blue and orange box, it's difficult to read so you might miss it, but there is nowhere to register, you can search for a cleaner and nominate your favorite but no link for cleaners to sign up.. Great idea though, I look forward to getting my name down.
AndyPosted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 24 September 2003
I'm having the same problem
AlanPosted by luap (luap), 24 September 2003
i had a phone call 8 or 9 days ago and a young lady told me i was on this site and it would not cost me anything.
must of got my name from one of the shows ??
paul.Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 25 September 2003
I filled out the form last week but i can not find myself 
so perhaps they are still updating the site 
Steve LowePosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 25 September 2003
Just had another carrier pidgeon arrive from Terry Burrows!
It seems there has been a bit of an oversight by the promoters of 'find me a window cleaner'
We are not sure if this is a mistake or we are waiting for the final version. They want to recommend Federation members to the public as they are vetted and insured but quite how is not clear yet. Maybe this is why the sign up page has disappeared.
So it's a case of 'Watch This Space!' at the moment, Terry will fill everyone in tomorrow when he gets his PC back as he is in direct contact with them.Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 25 September 2003
Thanks Fed man 
Sounds good doesn't it
Steve LowePosted by Majestic (Majestic), 25 September 2003
Has anyone heard anything about it on the radio, I have been looking in my local paper ,and listening to my local radio but nothing , I have checked the site out and am listed 
Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 25 September 2003
John,
Some of it was recorded and won't be broadcast just yet but it was Nationwide (God that pidgeon told me a lot, must have been a Cockney pidgeon!) TV will follow.Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 25 September 2003
JEEEEEZ, is there a swear filter on here?!!!! I said another word for LONDONER!!!!!!Posted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 26 September 2003
Hi Fed Man
Sorry but you cant mention those Londoners here
The search on the site does seem to work now although it does take a while to get to it. Do you happen to know if all the window cleaners listed there are Fed members?
MikePosted by Rob_B (Rob_B), 26 September 2003
I registered but my name doesn't come up which I think is because I'm not in the fed yet (Sent my application today) so maybe it is only fed members listed.Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 26 September 2003
With the Fed being involved with it I would of thought that it would be for members only.When Mr Turbo gets back on line he should be able to fill us in ,or does The Fed Man know Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 26 September 2003
Rob,
I filed out my name as well and i am not on their and i am a member of the NFMWGC so it is probably that they are still working on the site
Steve LowePosted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 1 October 2003
Hi guys I have had mega probs with me PC, I had 3
different bad viruses 
it stoped me in me tracks,with regards to findmeawindowcleaner.co.uk Anglian windows
have made it clear to us,that if you are a member of the Federation you will be listed,this is a free service they still are having some probs,so go with the flow at the
moment! 
there is a competition to find Britains most popular window cleaner! and no I am in this one friends etc and all can vote for there window cleaner! 
be it house window cleaning or houses! there is a prize for the most voted window cleaner,where Linda Barker
and myself will be at the Ideal home x in march to presnt the prize! I have been asked to judge this,so watch your peas and ques,good luck to all,who go for it
you gotta be in it to win it,remember to be listed for free
you have to be a member of the federation,this is to show that window cleaners who are members,are good
and bonyfied people, Posted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 1 October 2003
Dear polepro,no is does not mean you are a crook,it does mean you have the correct Insurance,it is also
blessed by the Health and safety,which says a lot in its self and you get id cards from the Fed,for some £45 per year,I dont think thats to sad! Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 1 October 2003
Polepro
Look at it as £45 less to pay the tax man Posted by sham33 (sham33), 1 October 2003
I agree with Polepro your just paying to use there badge really. You dont really have to do anything to earn it, like a qualification or be insured u just hand £45 over, even the Yorkshire Ripper could get one. Besides if i told my customers i was a member of the Feds they would probably think F.B.I.
Still im sure there Badge will make u look really professional 
Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 1 October 2003
Sham 33,
Yes you do need insurance to process your membership and i think for the small sum of £45 (Tax deductable) it has got to be worth joining.
StevePosted by Majestic (Majestic), 1 October 2003
When you fill out the Fed application form they ask if you have had any criminal convictions in the last 5 years, if you have you can`t join , so the ripper would not be a member. Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 1 October 2003
I have insurance and fully legal. Yet the fed won't answer my emails! What happens now? Posted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 1 October 2003
karlos cant you just download the application form from there web site fill it in with you bank details send it then they would have to deal with your application
I have a copy if you want it
AlanPosted by Majestic (Majestic), 1 October 2003
Karlos
Have you spoken to anyone in the Fed office
Is there a problem with you living abroad, could The Fed Man or Mr Turbo not help Posted by samm (samm), 2 October 2003
I agree polepro, anyone can join if they pay the money, all the feds services can be made to sound good, but in reality offer no more that is good as a cheap local ad/flyer and recommendations from satisfied customers. to find a window cleaner some has to log on a double glazing website - not very proffesional if you ask me people want sevice not the hard sell- all the money the fed takes, apart from the long board meetings and luches surely they could provide a website.Posted by AMG (AMG), 2 October 2003
Polepro & Samm,
Scrim City have sponsored their own website which lists window cleaners in different areas, it's free to get listed and you don't have to join the Fed! What's more if you search on Google for window Cleaners in the uk it comes up in the top 3 listings, so I would expect allot of traffic through that site. It's simple enough to use and you are listed instantly. The link is below:
www.WindowCleanersIndex.co.uk
AndyPosted by shinnyshinner (shinnyshinner), 2 October 2003
Nice one andy
Cheers AlanPosted by bm012e7270 (bm012e7270), 2 October 2003
I FILLED OUT THE FORM ON 15/9/ BUT I CNA NOT FINE MYSELF,I'M NOT IN THE FED AND WILL NOT BE A MEMBER. Y SEND ME THE FORM Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 3 October 2003
Yes John, there is a problem with me living abroad. I've noticed that fed man and Terry haven't replied, perhaps they are now seeing the implications of it all. It all stems from the fact that they want to open up to Europe, but there are too many catches. I've emailed Beryl, a couple of times. She said she was going to respond about 4 months a go. I've even sent a reminder. The position at the moment is I get the magazine and use of the logo for 100 quid, and thats it. As I said-still waiting for a reply.Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 3 October 2003
Hi Karl
Why should you have to pay so much , £100 seems a bit high Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 3 October 2003
Ask them!!!!
I think it's for overseas postage of the magazine-I didn't realise it was so big!Posted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 4 October 2003
To Karlos, firstly this the National Federation is not Europe! who in spain would know who we are!
is there no Federation in spain the fun side of things
is to vote for your window cleaner they do not have
to be listed with the fed,but you do have to be listed
with your details to be on the Findmeawindowcleaner
site,as a Fed member! the winner gets presented
with there prize in march,at the Idealhome x Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 5 October 2003
Da Fed Man Izza back a, ferom a Rio a, E no responda az a E cood not a ear a from a so far a!!!!!!!!
Karl,
why aren't you getting a reply from the Fed? Is the ball in your court?
Everybody,
how would you suggest Anglia vet window cleaners if not through the Fed? Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 5 October 2003
I am a Fed member, but I think joe public dont realy care if you are a member or not , its all down to your price Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 6 October 2003
To Terry:-
Bearing in mind the number of UK property owners where I am in Mallorca, I feel that they would have found use of the federation logo homely and reassuring. To me, it would be an excellent marketing tool, to a potentially very important sector of my business.
Do you have an active roll on the board Terry? Or are you just in the advertising side of the Fed?Posted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 6 October 2003
Karlos I do have an active roll,I went to a meeting
today from 10 oclock untill 5 o clock!I do understand
what your saying,I thought the Fed came up with £100
for you,as your fees,and they said they are waiting for your reply as your post would cost more over the year Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 6 October 2003
Thanks Terry.
I am still awaiting an official reply off the fed, as I mentioned in a previous post. I questioned the offer of 4 magazines and the use of the logo, and am still waiting for a reply. Beryl said she would put it to the board and give me further information when and whence it came through...I am still waiting. The fact that I have to pick away in 2 news boards to glean a reply, doesn't give me much confidence in the running of the federation so far. Please could you answer in respect to the following federation committee minutes.
Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 1st March 1999, p.2, pars.1, 2
Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 5th July 1999, p1,par.7
Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 6th December 1999, p1,pars. 5, 6
Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 6th March 2000, p1,par. 5
With all due respect, I don't think the fed has looked solidly into the case of international members, I thought they would welcome the chance to expand. As far as I know their is nothing that has the equivalent standing in Europe and would promote the fed even further, and bring thousands more to it's knowledge & experience in it's field, which could in turn lead to new opportunities and business.
Thanks for looking into this Terry.Posted by samm (samm), 7 October 2003
I remeber sending a 1cm thick brochure to lanzarote and it cost £2, 4 magazines is only £8.Posted by Andrew (Andrew), 10 October 2003
NFMW&GC AND OVER SEAS MEMBERSHIP
I am still awaiting an official reply off the fed, as I mentioned in a previous post. I questioned the offer of 4 magazines and the use of the logo, and am still waiting for a reply. Beryl said she would put it to the board and give me further information when and whence it came through...I am still waiting. The fact that I have to pick away in 2 news boards to glean a reply, doesn't give me much confidence in the running of the federation so far.
Terry i find the under handed way you are covering over the sins of the Fed on the issue of membership for none UK members disturbing. I beleive its right that the Forum are aware of the facts of the situation.
Karl is a victim of Federation humbug! It was previously agreed that none UK individuals could become Fed members. Details of what their membership would include were also agreed.
Note the following, extracts from Executive Committee meeting minutes:
Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 1st March 1999, p.2, pars.1, 2
Following a discussion about overseas membership - A Lee proposed that we should accept them, seconded by A. Johnson Cooper...A. Walker concerns about basis on which they should be accepted ... A. Walker amended the proposal to accept membership if they are in good standing [with any trade association representing window cleaners that might exist in the country in which they operate} - seconded by G. Dobson. Vote carried.
Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 5th July 1999, p1,par.7
...proposal by Mr Dodson for international membership fee - for a one-man band of £25 [E35.25] seconded by Treasurer. Vote carried.
Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 6th December 1999, p1,pars. 5, 6
T Cosgrove proposed not to accept international members on to the committee seconded by Mr Dobson. Vote revealed two abstentions, A Walker and A Lee. It is agreed to table to the March Meeting and take the draft [international membership] application form away for further consideration.
Mr Dobson proposed we should send Window Talk to ... over seas enquirers at a cost of £1.50 [E2.11]plus carriage seconded by M Baxter.
Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 6th March 2000, p1,par. 5
Secretary advised that only Andrew Walker's draft [of the proposed international membership application form] has been amended and returned - Tabled pending a complete Committee's response.
So far as i can see from the minutes the only reason for over seas window cleaners not being allowed membership, at present is that Executive Committee would not put the effort into producing a suitable application form, for prospective oversees members.
Andrew from Edu-Clean UKPosted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 10 October 2003
Thanks for the back up Andrew.
It seems that membership has gone uup 400% since 1999.Posted by aquarius4 (aquarius4), 12 October 2003
i have seen you guys up town. can you put some work my way?Posted by Bryan_Dolby (Bryan_Dolby), 12 October 2003
Bryan Dolby
I have a meeting with the company on thursday,if anybodys still having problems contact methrough this site
BRYANPosted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 12 October 2003
Hi Bryan,
A meeting with NFMW&GC or Anglian windows?Posted by Bryan_Dolby (Bryan_Dolby), 12 October 2003
Hello Karlosdaze
Meeting with Anglican on Thursday
Your problem about joining the fed seems like a mountain
I will look in to this personally,but it will take a few days
Bryan Doby
chairman
NFMWGCPosted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 13 October 2003
Hi Bryan,
Will everyone that is a member of the NFMWGC get listed
Steve LowePosted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 13 October 2003
Hi Bryan,
Yes it's at least a year old mountain. Could you ask Anglian if they intend to post "findmeawindowcleaner" in countrys overseas. I did post my details, but don't show up under Mallorca or Spain. It would be good to show that they can find a reliable window cleaner abroad thats also registered with a authoritive body! I'm not having much success with either company.Posted by Andrew (Andrew), 16 October 2003
Your problem about joining the fed seems like a mountain I will look in to this personally,but it will take a few days
Bryan Doby
chairman
NFMWGC
Your disloyalty to your colleagues on the Fed's Executive Committee galls me Mr Dolby. I would suggest that by far the majority of the "Clean it Up" Forum members, who read your words, take their inference to be that others are the source of Karls problem - but you, well your the solution - the cavalry galloping to his rescue! What ever the end results of your present intervention, feined or other wise, the fact is that you are at least equally responsible (if not more so) along with your fellow Executive Committee members, for the willfully obstructive and uncooperative manner that Karl has been subjected to!
May i ask who chaired the Executive Committee Meeting that took place 1st March 1999, when "following a discussion about overseas membership - A Lee proposed that we should accept them, seconded by A. Johnson Cooper...A. Walker concerns about basis on which they should be accepted ... A. Walker amended the proposal to accept membership if they are in good standing [with any trade association representing window cleaners that might exist in the country in which they operate} - seconded by G. Dobson. Vote carried. "
(Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 1st March 1999, p.2, pars.1, 2)
YOU DID!
Who chaired the Executive Committee Meeting that took place 5th July 1999, when the Minutes say, " ...proposal by Mr Dodson for international membership fee - for a one-man band of £25 [E35.25] seconded by Treasurer. Vote carried. (Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 5th July 1999, p1,par.7)
YOU DID
Who chaired the Executive Committee Meeting that took place 6th December 1999, when, "T Cosgrove proposed not to accept international members on to the committee seconded by Mr Dobson. Vote revealed two abstentions, A Walker and A Lee. It is agreed to table to the March Meeting and take the draft [international membership] application form away for further consideration. Mr Dobson proposed we should send Window Talk to ... over seas enquirers at a cost of £1.50 [E2.11]plus carriage seconded by M Baxter." (
Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 6th December 1999, p1,pars. 5, 6)
YOU DID
Who chaired the Executive Committee Meeting that took place 6th March 2000, when the general, "Secretary advised that only Andrew Walker's draft [of the proposed international membership application form] has been amended and returned - Tabled pending a complete Committee's response."(Executive Committee Meeting Minutes for 6th March 2000, p1,par. 5)
YOU DID
I would put it to you that, despite all the agreed Federation procedure, outlined above, which you had a part in formulating, that you personally presided over, and which is common knowege to you, you have been more than happy to preside over an Executive Committee that bars Karl from rightful membership!
Surely the decision to take this to the next AGM, to create a new rule regarding none UK residents joining the Fed, is just a straight forward xenaphobic delaying tactic, in the hope that Karl loses interest! When was the need for a rule change ever muted before!!
Andrew Walker - Edu-Clean UKPosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 16 October 2003
Andrew,
Assuming this is a true and accurate record, why in your opinion did this proposal not meet a logical conclusion, after the application form draft? What happened to the applicants requiring membership, or was membership just being considered as something to offer in the future? Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 16 October 2003
on 10/16/03 at 17:41:31, The_Fed_Man wrote:Assuming this is a true and accurate record, why in your opinion did this proposal not meet a logical conclusion, after the application form draft? What happened to the applicants requiring membership, or was membership just being considered as something to offer in the future?
Are you on the board of the federation Fed-man? If so why are you asking Andrew these questions? Can you not find out the answer to these questions if you are on the board? If you were to ask these questions, would your position be at stake? Does the NFWC run a system of compliance with majority or goodbye?
It's all smelling very fishy! Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 17 October 2003
Are you on the board of the federation Fed-man?
If I disclose my identity, I will have to kill you
why are you asking Andrew these questions
Always good to get these things out in the open, after all don't you want to know?
Does the NFWC run a system of compliance with majority or goodbye?
Well the majority get the vote, as with most committees, how would you run it? Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 17 October 2003
on 10/17/03 at 08:10:59, The_Fed_Man wrote:Are you on the board of the federation Fed-man?
If I disclose my identity, I will have to kill you
Fed Man, When forum members are putting questions to you about the fed, If you are on the fed committee and want to be taken seriously as a professional why do you not disclose your identity as at least forum members know who they are speaking to
Steve LowePosted by Andrew (Andrew), 17 October 2003
Andrew,
Assuming this is a true and accurate record, why in your opinion did this proposal not meet a logical conclusion, after the application form draft? What happened to the applicants requiring membership, or was membership just being considered as something to offer in the future
First of all may i remind Forum readers that telling a lie can take a form other than a direct statement!
I resent these words, "Assuming this is a true and accurate record" Your colleague Bryan Dolby has complained elsewhere in this Forum about others here making liabalous comments! Seeminly its OK for Executive Committee members to indulge in the practice though!
I am sure you know that the quotations i have made, from past Executive Committee minutes are a true, accurate and in context representation of the decisions made at the meetings they represent. I think its a sad reflection of your personal ethics that you would rather raise a bogus question about my integrity and honesty, than admit to the committees mistreatment of a prospective member!
For those of you who have not served on the Executive Committee let me explain the backgroung to minutes such as the ones i quote from.
When an Executive Meeting is in progress the General Secretary records details of what takes place. Prior to the next meeting these are printed out, and a copy sent to each committee member for study. At the start of the next meeting the minutes are reveiwed to monitor progress of action points and to ensure their accuracy.
When "Fed Man" writes, "Assuming this is a true and accurate record" there speaks a man who has been given a copy of the minutes for every meeting he has ever been to. Presumably as a responsible member of the Executive Committee he files the minutes in his Federation work portfolio for future reference. Even if he cant be bothered doing that, as i can well imagine, he still has access to copies of minutes storred elsewhere!
Regretfully "Fed Man" hides behind a cloak of anonymity, refusing to identify himself, so we dont know which of the meetings in question he attended - if any! I take the veiw howver that if a person chooses to represent themself, as he appears to, as the personification of the Federation, "the Fed Man", then he has to accept the responsibily and the "flack" that goes with it!!
why in your opinion did this proposal not meet a logical conclusion, after the application form draft? What happened to the applicants requiring membership, or was membership just being considered as something to offer in the future
For the benefit of readers i will comment on these questions!
why in your opinion did this proposal not meet a logical conclusion, after the application form draft?
The minutes quoted show i was the only one to create such a draft. The General Secretary required a number of draft specemins to blend the best of each into one. Others were never produced. Procastination led to the proposal being side lined.
What happened to the applicants requiring membership
These were all attendees of the IWCA trade shows that i had met whilst in the USA. What happened to them! Well there wishes were disrespected and ignored!
or was membership just being considered as something to offer in the future
well it wasnt for the past was it!
Andrew from Edu-CleanPosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 17 October 2003
Andrew,
Woah........!!!! I am not attacking your personal integrity & honesty, I am just trying to establish fact for the benefit of any who wish to join this debate. Why the hostility??
Surely the way foward on this issue is through the correct channels at the Federation, not name calling on an email group.
My identity is immaterial, I am not hiding behind any cloak, nor am I insecure enough to need any prestige awarded as such, if any don't take me seriously because of this, then so be it.
I do respect many of your proposals but we're not going to get anywhere if tempers are raised and it all becomes a personal issue.Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 17 October 2003
OoooEeer - what have i started! I only wanted to get membership of the federation, and not 4 magazines for a 100 quid. By the way I was told that I could view this magazine on the website, yet it hasn't been changed since April.
Now Martin, oops Fed-man, if your a contract killer you will have to match up to a few other characters around here. I was only talking to "Jack the Kipper" this morning, and he's never heard of you?
why are you asking Andrew these questions
Always good to get these things out in the open, after all don't you want to know?
I've heard Andrews viewpoint both publicaly & privately...what are yours?
Does the NFWC run a system of compliance with majority or goodbye?
Well the majority get the vote, as with most committees, how would you run it?
I think from what I've heard so far, I'd stick a bomb in there, and start again
I would also have one spokesman for the federation, that could write accurately & coherently, and agree a viewpoint before posting. 
When I applied, I thought I was given the brush-off also, especially when I was told I could join the IWCA by the NFMWC.
O.K. I'll get my coat now............Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 17 October 2003
Karl,
I've heard Andrews viewpoint both publicaly & privately...what are yours
I think European Membership would be a good thing, good for the Fed also. I also do not know the details of the previous Fed applicants or the outcome, and was surprised to read what was posted. If you know of any others that wish to join, why not get together and make a joint proposal, in writing would be best.
Nobody is going to change anything unless they get involved!
T.Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 17 October 2003
I'd like to get involved, but I'm not a member!Posted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 18 October 2003
I really do have to try and stay neutral here but you have to laugh dont you Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 18 October 2003
Its like who shot JR
Everyone is tuning in to see the next bit
I am showing my age now 
Steve LowePosted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 18 October 2003
on 10/17/03 at 20:30:59, The_Fed_Man wrote:Karl,
I think European Membership would be a good thing, good for the Fed also. I also do not know the details of the previous Fed applicants or the outcome, and was surprised to read what was posted.
Martin,
If your in the fed, can't you get access to that information, and find out the outcome? Or is that information top secret? Are you likely to loose a few fingers for attempting this mission? This message will destruct in 5 seconds..................................... 
Posted by Andrew (Andrew), 20 October 2003
Woah........!!!! I am not attacking your personal integrity & honesty, I am just trying to establish fact for the benefit of any who wish to join this debate. Why the hostility ?? Surely the way foward on this issue is through the correct channels at the Federation, not name calling on an email group. My identity is immaterial, I am not hiding behind any cloak, nor am I insecure enough to need any prestige awarded as such, if any don't take me seriously because of this, then so be it. I do respect many of your proposals but we're not going to get anywhere if tempers are raised and it all becomes a personal issue.
I am not attacking your personal integrity & honesty, I am just trying to establish fact for … any who wish to join this debate.
That’s the sum total of your ethicacy then is it? Despite having the facts available to you, you are quite happy to pretend other wise and bring some body else’s reputation into question, just so you that you can enjoy a debate?
Surely the way to have helped establish "the fact", for those who wished to join the “debate”, would have been for you to clearly and unambiguously state, in writing, that the extracts of the minutes I quoted were a true and accurate record of past decisions that the Fed had made with respect to overseas membership! As neither you, or the other Executive Committee members, who contribute to this Forum, seem willing, or appear to intend, to be open and honest on this issue, I will endeaveour to do the job for you.
In due course I will send photo-copies of the minutes in question to Karl, so he can see the measure of Federation disrespect toward him for himself. I am also here offering to send photo-copies of the same to this Forum owner, the moderator, and other senior members of the Forum who have contributed to this discussion.
In your previous posting you indirectly raised a question about the accuracy of information I posted. Information you have access to yourself, if not a personal recollection of, and a personal involvement with. I had already established, “the fact”, something that you and other members of the Executive Committee had ample opportunity to do previously! I therefore repeat:
When "Fed Man" writes, "Assuming this is a true and accurate record" there speaks a man who has been given a copy of the minutes for every meeting he has ever been to. Presumably as a responsible member of the Executive Committee he files the minutes in his Federation work portfolio for future reference. Even if he cant be bothered doing that, as i can well imagine, he still has access to copies of minutes stored elsewhere!
(continued in my next posting)
Andrew from Edu-CleanPosted by Andrew (Andrew), 20 October 2003
(continued from previous posting)
Woah........!!!! I am not attacking your personal integrity & honesty, I am just trying to establish fact for the benefit of any who wish to join this debate. Why the hostility ?? Surely the way foward on this issue is through the correct channels at the Federation, not name calling on an email group. My identity is immaterial, I am not hiding behind any cloak, nor am I insecure enough to need any prestige awarded as such, if any don't take me seriously because of this, then so be it. I do respect many of your proposals but we're not going to get anywhere if tempers are raised and it all becomes a personal issue.
Why the hostility ??
Two reasons:
1/Because I care about the Federation and the way others perceive it. The prospective member in question knows he’s getting the “brush off”. I do, and you do! Its one thing to imagine it going on privately, in the boardroom at Summerfield. Its quite another to see it happening before your face in an email forum.
2/I care about decisions I helped to formulate whilst a member of the Executive Committee. I’m hostile to the fact, and angry that lots of time was spent on them, that they were formally agreed, but that after my removal from the Executive Committee, you brush them under the carpet, come on here and suggest such events never happened!
Surely the way foward on this issue is through the correct channels at the Federation, not name calling on an email group.
Aren’t you forgetting that you and your fellow committee members unanimously voted to remove me from having a voice in that “channel”? Be assured, as someone with a proven passion for the industry, and the people in it, if I cant voice myself on one soap box, I will, if I feel there is a need to, use any other that’s available. In any case I want the prospective member to know, and other sympathetic to his situation, that I personally worked hard on behalf of prospective over seas members, whilst with the Fed, and that the indignity he has suffered, in recent times, is the fault of the present Executive Committee, not me.
The Federation in fact is not anything like the “correct channel” for the majority of UK window cleaners and is probably not for the majority of Forum members here. There are an estimated 85,000 window cleaners in the UK, and only around 2,400 Fed members. I’m pretty sure most of that 85,000 would find your idea of the Fed, as the “correct channel” for debate and discussion, as an expression of fanciful Federation arrogance – perhaps even a thinly veiled attempt at censorship!
not name calling on an email group.
I didn’t realise I was!
Looking at the postings in this Forum, in chronological order, its clear that for many Forum members the Federation already had a bad name, a poor reputation - long before I made my first contribution. Is it not the Federation’s unwillingness, on the Forum, to admit faults and failings, the thing that’s damaging the Fed’s reputation the most?
None of the Fed related threads on this Forum were initiated by me. Any comments I have made, were expressed in response to other postings, either to help substantiate or refute comments made about the Federation by others, or in reply to questions specifically asked of me.
My identity is immaterial,I am not hiding behind any cloak, nor am I insecure enough to need any prestige awarded as such, if any don't take me seriously because of this, then so be it.
Your choice, but I am disappointed that, as an appointed Fed officer, you intend to continue a stance which for some detracts from the seriousness of your’ position. Do you not think that if people took you more seriously you might be able to accomplish more?
I never mentioned, “a cloak” or, insecurity! A Freudian slip perhaps!
I do respect many of your proposals
That’s very kind of you! I would love to know which of my proposals you voted to throw me out for, and which ones you would have like to have kept me for. Any chance of a list?
but we're not going to get anywhere if tempers are raised and it all becomes a personal issue.
A nice platitude – but sorry – I expect representatives of my trade association to behave, especially one in which I have worked so hard. Readers should note that my comments are indeed very personal!! ! I expect you, Fedman, to go away and put matters right. I expect a committee member to make comments in such a forum as this that are not misleading. At the very least I expect them to check on their facts before they comment, and not choose bringing somebody else into disrepute as the favoured option instead!!.Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 20 October 2003
Ok, lets get this straight.
I was not on the committee from March 99 to March 00 when the aforementioned overseas membership proposal was taking place. I joined the Committee through your recommendation and invitation in October 01.
Karl contacted me earlier in the year regarding overseas membership and I suggested he write the General Secretary which he did. I also followed this up at the July meeting where it was agreed to offer Corporate membership @ £100 + Window Talk & use of logo. I personally emailed Karl after this to let him know. If Karl wishes me to persue this further, I will.
Aren’t you forgetting that you and your fellow committee members unanimously voted to remove me from having a voice in that “channel”?
Andrew, you know I wasn't at that particular meeting, nor did I vote on it! You also know my feelings on it!
Although there are only 2400 members out of the UK's 85000, compare this to the IWCA's 650 proffessional in the whole of the USA!
I was hoping to pick up some feedback regarding the Fed by staying anonymous. No deception intended, no double agent! Just keeping my ear to the ground!
Martin Warman
Posted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 20 October 2003
Martin,you are correct in what you just said! certain people are just cleaver with words! and
as for the great IWCA they are not interested in the
Fed!I have seen it for myself,they treat you like ****
pointless I will let you know what IWCA stands for! Posted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 20 October 2003
Hi
This may be a salient time to mention a proposal we have put to some of the members involved in this particular topic.
Since we launched this Forum in late July we have had many positive comments from members who have benefited from it (including representatives of the Federation)
This isn't the only cleaning forum around but it has attracted a lot new and experienced people from within the industry in the few months it has been going.
Despite, this initial success we're obviously keen to develop it so that people keep coming back and contributing to it and it doesnt become 'stale' with the same topics being discussed time and again.
How does the Federation, and its members, feel about developing a seperate section on this Forum exclusively for Federation members. This would be an area that is used solely for specific Federation topics (such as European membership, for example).
There is no doubt that the industry needs the Federation and we all know that running anything by committee is often easier said than done. Isn't one of the biggest problems for organisations like this the lack of input from general members - those that complain about things but dont get actively involved changing them? It's own section of the Forum would give these members the ability to get more involved in Federation policy by simply logging on and having their say rather than having to attend meetings or wade through pages of minutes. It would only work, however, if it was actively promoted by the Federation itself.
Somehow, I now suspect that Karl will get his membership sooner rather than later because other members have, or will, get involved. It won't get 'overlooked' because the issue has been so public.
Isn't that a good thing for all those involved?
So, if we all agree that the Federation would achieve more if more members got involved, the questions are:
1) Would a Federation members area on this site be the place for these discussions?
2) What do YOU, the Federation members think
3) What does the committee think? Would it genuinely and enthusiastically promote it to its members
I look forward to your comments
Mike Boxall
Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 20 October 2003
Hi Mike,
As you know I think it's a good idea. I can think of one 'would be' committee member who would make a good moderator, it may also cut the red tape involved with enquiries to the Fed or complaints.
General access would be required rather than exclusive access otherwise you could run the risk of alienating some prospective members. Personally I can't see a problem apart from advertisers using the member list for their own means. Yes I would actively promote it.
BTW, Karl has been offered Corporate membership but he doesn't like the price. (can't say I blame him)
Martin Warman
Executive Council Member
N.F.M.W&G.C. Posted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 20 October 2003
yes Mike I think its a good idea to! but at the moment there is only 3 of us from the board,myself
Martin and Brian dolby chairman,I do not have lots of time,I have promotion work coming up with Guinness
Book later this week for example! but it is a very good idea it does depend on how much time Fed Board can give,as you are aware I do try to answer,but are off for days at a time,sorry for that! this is the forum for
window cleaners and will be the main one! your members are growing very nice to see,I would say one thing,all interested in the Fed,please write in to the office,or please we would like to see you at the trade
show next year April,friday night is our AGM MEMBERS ONLY BY THE WAY I LIKE A BLACK RUSSIAN PLEASE! Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 20 October 2003
on 10/20/03 at 16:49:12, The_Fed_Man wrote:Ok, lets get this straight.
I also followed this up at the July meeting where it was agreed to offer Corporate membership @ £100 + Window Talk & use of logo. I personally emailed Karl after this to let him know. If Karl wishes me to persue this further, I will.
I'm sorry Martin, I didn't know who was the official voice of the body when you sent me that email. Thats why I asked if I should chase it up, and you agreed-which I did, and may I add with no reply. This was the previous reply:-
We have discussed this at previous Management meetings, and as Martin
explained, the outcome of this is; as we are a National Trade Association -
the benefits are only applicable to Great Britain. We agreed therefore, to
offer subscription to our Quarterly trade journal "Window Talk" at a cost
of ?50 sterling.
However, some of the most relevant pages of the magazine can be viewed FOC
on our website with Acrobat Reader - this is amended quarterly and the next
update is due early July.
Have you contacted the International Window Cleaning Association (IWCA)
7801 Suffolk Court Alexandria, VA 22915-4029 USA -iwca@aol.com
1-800-875-iwca or 703-971-7771 Executive Director Jack Pitzer
www.iwca.org
So when you stated:-
"At our last committee meeting I bought up your case for joining and it appears that it should be possible to allow you Corporate Membership at £100 Sterling, (assuming your turnover is not more than £100K), use of the logo and Window Talk"
I got a little suspicious! As you can imagine, it's like think of a number and double it, see where I'm coming from? By the way, with "corporate" membership do I get a crown or something? I love dressed up words, but what does "corporate" actually mean? As far as I'm concerned it just means united in a group, which is what you get with normal membership.
Yes please, pursue this further!!
BTW, Karl has been offered Corporate membership but he doesn't like the price. (can't say I blame him)
Well I'm glad the NFMW and myself agree on something.
My proprosition:- For the normal price of 45 pounds, I'll agree to promote the federation abroad with stickers, adverts in a foreign country with an English population rising to 3 million during peak season. Much cheaper than "yellow pages", and I promise to have my van driven around the resort at least 5 days a week, excluding public holidays and fiestas. All I ask is for the magazine to be delivered at your cost, the I.D. card, and I will pay the extra postage on all items from the "discounted equipment". I also expect that you will give me use of the logo to promote the federation, and will send me these stickers free of charge for the benefit of the federation, and for the unusually long delay I've had in requiring access(that'll cost you an extra 12p).
Failing that, let's barter
I will let you know what IWCA stands for! (Terry_Burrows)
I'm dying to know, the mind boggles. Is this classed as "pre-name calling?"Posted by Terry_Burrows (Terry_Burrows), 20 October 2003
lets just say Karl I have renamed it,but I did this back
some 4 years ago! you have to go there to find out! Posted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 20 October 2003
on 10/20/03 at 18:55:01, The_Fed_Man wrote:General access would be required rather than exclusive access otherwise you could run the risk of alienating some prospective members. ....advertisers using the member list for their own means
Hi Martin, the forum is already being used to discuss the Fed and I'm sure will continue regardless of any further developments here or not. What I was suggesting is that the Fed use it to discuss and develop policies between thier own members. From what I can gather one of the delays for Karl was due to the fact that the committee was waiting for someone to provide an alternative application form to Andrews but no-one provided it (please correct me if I'm wrong!). Now I dont know how many of your members knew that you wanted someone else to come up with one but I'm guessing there werent many. If a request like that was put online I'm positive one of your members would have done something about it and you would soon be a little further forward than you are now.
I really dont think you would alienate potential members, in fact, I'm sure you would encourage more to join if they knew they could easily get involved in moving the industry forward.
General questions about the Fed and what it achieves could still be posted on the existing section of the site with an invitation to join.
As far advertisers using member lists goes, I can assure you that it just wouldnt happen! There are no advertisers other than ourselves and we would guarantee your members privacy!
Regards
MikePosted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 20 October 2003
Hello Karl,
I like a bargainer. Sounds like a good idea to me, I would have no problem with it. (If I can swing it, can we stay in your house for 2 weeks next Aug/Sept? )
Seriously, with most of the safety standards being European I think European Membership would be a pro active thing. Do you know of a European Association or email group we can lobby for additional members?
Mike,
The application form Andrew produced was 2 years prior to Karl's application. With regard to advertisers getting the membership list, I got on here anonymously enough so could anyone else, even with the motive of selling the information. I think your anonymous member rule would need revising.
Yes I think the publicity will do Karl's application good, but i would have followed it up at his request anyway.
Martin Warman
Executive Council Member
N.F.M.W& G.C.Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 20 October 2003
Karl,
Sorry forgot to answer your other question- Coporate Membership. The reason you are being offered this is because the all the Full Member benefits are not available abroad, so Corporate is a form of limited membership, usually offered to ' a person, partner in a firm or member of a limited company trading with or supplying goods or services to Members' (quote the rule book)
Were you told this already?
Martin Warman
Executive Council Member
N.F.M.W& G.C.Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 20 October 2003
on 10/20/03 at 22:07:36, The_Fed_Man wrote:Hello Karl,
I like a bargainer. Sounds like a good idea to me, I would have no problem with it. (If I can swing it, can we stay in your house for 2 weeks next Aug/Sept? )
.
Thats the fly season, yes I think I can fit you in, I'm being serious, I also do property management. You have to clean the windows though, colonial style!Posted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 20 October 2003
Martin - the Fed section would only be available to a selected 'member list'. That means a moderator would have to establish whether they were a Fed members or not - they would not be able to access that particular board without a moderator authorising it.
Yes, anyone can get a member list but they'd only get user names and nothing else. I assume when Anglian get their website up and running properly won't all your members details be listed there - including contact phone numbers etc? Posted by The_Fed_Man (The_Fed_Man), 20 October 2003
Thats the fly season, yes I think I can fit you in, I'm being serious, I also do property management. You have to clean the windows though, colonial style!
Done! 2 Weeks free accomodation in return for a window clean
Do I have to sleep next to Jack the Kipper? Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 20 October 2003
on 10/20/03 at 22:36:49, The_Fed_Man wrote:Karl,
Sorry forgot to answer your other question- Coporate Membership. The reason you are being offered this is because the all the Full Member benefits are not available abroad, so Corporate is a form of limited membership, usually offered to ' a person, partner in a firm or member of a limited company trading with or supplying goods or services to Members' (quote the rule book)
Were you told this already?
Martin Warman
Executive Council Member
N.F.M.W& G.C.
No, never.Posted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 20 October 2003
on 10/20/03 at 22:52:05, The_Fed_Man wrote:Do I have to sleep next to Jack the Kipper?
I think thats "Billy the butchers" week!Posted by BeeClean (BeeClean), 22 October 2003
Mike im surprised not many fed members other than the commitee have answered your questions maybe thats why nothing ever gets done anyway i prefer to see them all arguing in public
(if corporate membership is limited why is it twice the price )Posted by gibbouk (gibbouk), 22 October 2003
on 10/20/03 at 18:35:41, Mike_Boxall wrote:Hi
So, if we all agree that the Federation would achieve more if more members got involved, the questions are:
1) Would a Federation members area on this site be the place for these discussions?
2) What do YOU, the Federation members think
3) What does the committee think? Would it genuinely and enthusiastically promote it to its members
I look forward to your comments
Mike Boxall
GOT HERE A BIT LATE FOR ALL THIS BUT I WOULD LIKE TO STATE A POINT OF VIEW ON THE ABOVE COMMENTS.
TO HIDE THE CONS OF THE MEMBERSHIP TO THE FEDERATION. I THINK IS WRONG. I HAVE NOT JOINED YET AND AM STILL DECIDING. AS IT GOES I CANNOT SEE ANY BENIFIT FOR ME IN JOINING AT THE PRESENT TIME. BUT AT LEAST I SEE THE OTHER SIDE TO IT ALL. TO CREATE AN AREA THAT IS ONLY FOR MEMBERS WOULD EXCLUDE PEOPLE LIKE ME THAT WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ALL THE FACTS ABOUT THE FED. Posted by Andrew (Andrew), 1 December 2003
Due to contractual commitments taking my time I have not had opportunity to enjoy the forum over the last few weeks. I was interested today then to read through the progression of this thread during my absence.
Congratulations i say to Mike Boxall for his endeavours to accomodate the sensitivities of the NFMW&GC! Mike raised the question of whether the NFMW&GC have their own sector of the Forum!
In the November 2003 issue of one national cleaning trade mag, the Fed, as in previous issues, claim of themselves: WORKING WITH AND FOR BRITAINS WINDOW CLEANERS.
In the NFMW&GC recruitment leaflet, National Federation of Master Window & General Cleaners - How Will the N.F.M.W. & G.C. Benefit You?, it says on page 3, its aims include to, "Represent the Industry with Government and Municipal bodies". Page 6 says, "The Federation was formed in 1947 to establish an authoritative orgination (sic) specifically concerned with the Window Cleaning Industry and its subsidiary services..."
The purported purpose of the NFMW&GC is then clear. This body, by its own published word claims to represent the interests of all in the window cleaning industry, not just its membership. In my view for the NFMW&GC to accept Mikes suggestion would:
Make it next to impossible, in terms of the wider membership of this Forum, to carry out that function.
Andrew Walker - Edu-Clean UKPosted by Mike_Boxall (Mike_Boxall), 2 December 2003
Welcome back Andrew
Do you not think that it would be the place for members to discuss Federation policies and allow them to get more involved in developing them?
I agree that general Federation topics should be open to all but I also think there should be an opportunity for those members that are not able to attend committee meetings to have their say.
Unfortunately, although those involved seem to favor the idea, we have yet to make much progress on it.
Maybe now that this topic has been brought back to life we could have some more comments on it.
Regards
MikePosted by paul (paul), 3 December 2003
IM A FED MEMBER AND LISTED ON THE SITE BUT THEY CONTACTED ME ABOUT ITPosted by Rob_B (Rob_B), 3 December 2003
I wondered what you was going on about, but then I remembered what the topic started out as .
I'm a fed member but I am not registered, however someome else in my town is. I filled out the registration when it first came out (which has now gone) but to no avail. i don't think too many people know its there anyway Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 5 December 2003
Has anyone had any work from this site , or does anyones customers know about this site , Posted by dave_r (dave_r), 13 December 2003
Just tried this site.
Cannot see antthing referring to 'find a window'.
Any ideas? Posted by dave_r (dave_r), 13 December 2003
Just tried this site and cannot find any reference to it.
Any help?Posted by dave_r (dave_r), 13 December 2003
What are the real advantages to joining the federation?Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 14 December 2003
Hi Dave
If you go to the site and look on the right hand side their is a box with find me a window cleaner,If you click on this you will get to the right section.
StevePosted by karlosdaze (karlosdaze), 14 December 2003
NFMW&GC
I would like to thank Andrew Walker for pushing the subject for European members on this and other websites. Many thanks to Martin Warman for his sterling work and for bringing the subject up yet again at the recent meeting. Even if it did get a little heated at times in the past, thanks for all involved and any commitee members I have unintentionally ommited in providing the result. I haven't been notified of the minutes, or what was said, the end result is Beryl will be sending me an application form in due course. I know I shouldn't count my chickens......
Now to get listed on "findmeawindowcleaner"!!Posted by Majestic (Majestic), 22 December 2003
Got my copy of Window Talk ( fed mag) this morning and inside it was about 10 leaflets advertising the find me a window cleaner site Posted by STEVE71163 (Steve Lowe), 28 December 2003
I have received a few enquiries from the find me a window cleaner site so far How is this site being marketed
Steve
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